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Tolkien’s Mythic Plan for England

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Re: Tolkien’s Mythic Plan for England

#81

Post by zipwitch »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #45
macleginn wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, so I hope it was okay with him when Lloyd Alexander took LOTR, watered it down, combined it with everything he could profitably extract from Mabinogion, and published the end result as the Chronicles of Prydain. On a more serious note, I would suggest that Tolkien with his unabashed traditionalism was actually a major figure in the 20th c. postmodernist tradition. The "Cauldron of Story" is not very far removed…

So out of all the lousy ripoffs of Tolkien in the world you decide to beat up Lloyd Alexander?! on edit: obviously I ask because I find him miles better than some of the better known ones.

When you say "ripoff of Tolkien" my mind immediately goes to The Sword of Shannara which even when I first read (and enjoyed) it in grade school had me constantly thinking how much it copied Lord of the Rings.

Re: Tolkien’s Mythic Plan for England

#82

Post by zipwitch »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #23
macleginn wrote: post #13

One fascinating aspect of Tolkien’s oeuvre is that his writings are, how to put it, endlessly derivative. Not only did he use words from different languages, motifs from different mythologies, and images from different poetical traditions. He also mercilessly raided the writings of George MacDonald for characters and plot elements (try reading ‘Phantastes’ or ‘The Princess and the Goblin’ to appreciate just how freak…

He did it so well that most "high" fantasy that came out after him felt derivative of Tolkien. I'd really like to see counter-examples though; I feel like I haven't dived into the genre enough, in part because I'm turned off by the sheer volume of some book (series) on the one hand, and the juvenile tropes (generic hero's journey formula) on the other.

Malazan Books of the Fallen by Steven Erikson.

They've got more than a few roots in fantasy gaming, which in turn does owe something to Tolkien, but they're unquestionably high fantasy, and they certainly struck me a very diffent from Tolkien.

Re: Tolkien’s Mythic Plan for England

#83

Post by barrkel »

have_faith wrote: post #26
macleginn wrote: post #13

One fascinating aspect of Tolkien’s oeuvre is that his writings are, how to put it, endlessly derivative. Not only did he use words from different languages, motifs from different mythologies, and images from different poetical traditions. He also mercilessly raided the writings of George MacDonald for characters and plot elements (try reading ‘Phantastes’ or ‘The Princess and the Goblin’ to appreciate just how freak…

I think we have an unhealthy obsession with trying to achieve 100% original thoughts and ideas, to the point that people often hide their influences unless they feel people will understand that they didn't borrow too much. Feels like a psychological trap.

Something truly original won't be understood. Novelty must be in small doses.

Re: Tolkien’s Mythic Plan for England

#84

Post by jeffreyrogers »

macleginn wrote: post #13

One fascinating aspect of Tolkien’s oeuvre is that his writings are, how to put it, endlessly derivative. Not only did he use words from different languages, motifs from different mythologies, and images from different poetical traditions. He also mercilessly raided the writings of George MacDonald for characters and plot elements (try reading ‘Phantastes’ or ‘The Princess and the Goblin’ to appreciate just how freak…

Didn't Shakespeare invent a bunch of words? I'm not sure if Tolkien did or not, but it wouldn't surprise me if he did too (I mean real words that get used by normal people, not fantasy words). Shakespeare also had an attunement to people's emotions and underlying drives that few writers match (maybe Dostoevsky and some others). But I agree with your larger point.

Re: Tolkien’s Mythic Plan for England

#85

Post by morelisp »

goto11 wrote: post #52
morelisp wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tolkien also contradicts himself by hinting at more direct allegories e.g. the dwarves as Jews during the later years of his life. Combined with his open lament for the Nazi appropriation of Norse mythology, it's hard to see how his fictional Eddaic / Judaic nexus is not among the most stereotypically prescriptive combination of metaphor, allegory, and moral. (Not intended as a negative criticism, because I think it…

I think the quote is just Tolkien getting really annoyed that people read LoTR as an allegory for WWII. If I understand the quote correctly, he is rejecting the form of allegory where the reader is supposed to "get it" and use the allegory to "decode the message". But Tolkien wasn't trying to say anything about the Jewish people through the vehicle of Dwarwes, he was just drawing on some inspiration.

But - really? You don't think he was saying anything about the Jewish people when he had a friendship between a dwarf and elf succeed over timeless racial antipathy? Or by having the plight of the dwarves be what ultimately moves a member of the extremely comfortable hobbit gentry to direct action? Or even by the simple mixing of the unquestioned Norse "supreme contribution to Europe" with Jewish mythology, he wasn't hinting that, maybe, also, the Jewish people had contributed in the same way?

I agree you can't just read Middle Earth as "alternate Europe" (and especially not the War of the Ring as a WW2 allegory) and a lot of people unfortunately do. But if Tolkien had nothing to say, he would not have written anything; and having written something, he cannot help but say something.

Re: Tolkien’s Mythic Plan for England

#86

Post by macleginn »

yters wrote: post #66
macleginn wrote: post #13

One fascinating aspect of Tolkien’s oeuvre is that his writings are, how to put it, endlessly derivative. Not only did he use words from different languages, motifs from different mythologies, and images from different poetical traditions. He also mercilessly raided the writings of George MacDonald for characters and plot elements (try reading ‘Phantastes’ or ‘The Princess and the Goblin’ to appreciate just how freak…

How much does MacDonald rely on medieval literature for his characters and plots? I've read a fair amount of both Tolkien and MacDonald, and I can see some similarities, but nothing obviously stands out as Tolkien copying wholesale from MacDonald. OTOH both of their writings remind me of medieval stories, e.g. faerie queen, arthurian legends, beowulf, etc.

Moving sentient malevolent trees (from Phantastes) are, AFAIK, MacDonald’s own invention. Also the depiction of the goblin kingdom under the mountain is deeply original, even though the idea itself is older. Tolkien copied both. There are other examples.

Re: Tolkien’s Mythic Plan for England

#87

Post by frabbit »

Forgeties79 wrote: post #62
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He did it so well that most "high" fantasy that came out after him felt derivative of Tolkien. I'd really like to see counter-examples though; I feel like I haven't dived into the genre enough, in part because I'm turned off by the sheer volume of some book (series) on the one hand, and the juvenile tropes (generic hero's journey formula) on the other.

You should check out the “Mistborn” series by Brian Sanderson. You’ll recognize some tropes/themes but it’s really different from what I’ve usually read and the characters are absolutely fantastic. It’s 3 books and they’re a bit lengthy but it’s a self-contained, satisfying story. Elevator pitch for you: you know the epic good vs. evil showdown where the good guys charge epically against the likes of Sauron and his e…

Out of interest do you dis/like Tolkien's work?

Re: Tolkien’s Mythic Plan for England

#88

Post by Forgeties79 »

jhauris wrote: post #67
Forgeties79 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should check out the “Mistborn” series by Brian Sanderson. You’ll recognize some tropes/themes but it’s really different from what I’ve usually read and the characters are absolutely fantastic. It’s 3 books and they’re a bit lengthy but it’s a self-contained, satisfying story. Elevator pitch for you: you know the epic good vs. evil showdown where the good guys charge epically against the likes of Sauron and his e…

Minor correction, it's Brandon Sanderson. He is a fantastic fantasy author. The Stormlight archives is another series by him that is really good.

Ahhh good catch. Thanks! I always do that with his name. And I started stormlight recently!

Re: Tolkien’s Mythic Plan for England

#89

Post by Forgeties79 »

frabbit wrote: post #87
Forgeties79 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should check out the “Mistborn” series by Brian Sanderson. You’ll recognize some tropes/themes but it’s really different from what I’ve usually read and the characters are absolutely fantastic. It’s 3 books and they’re a bit lengthy but it’s a self-contained, satisfying story. Elevator pitch for you: you know the epic good vs. evil showdown where the good guys charge epically against the likes of Sauron and his e…

Out of interest do you dis/like Tolkien's work?

Love the movies, mixed on the books. They’re obviously classics and have a lot of beauty but I don’t feel the need to revisit them. I like a little faster pacing in what I read.

Re: Tolkien’s Mythic Plan for England

#90

Post by Forgeties79 »

thewhitetulip wrote: post #75
Forgeties79 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also every critic (hell, every person with a social media account and too much time on their hands) will endlessly berate you - and you see it too. Critics have also learned that, unless the film/book/game/etc is absolutely breathtaking, bashing and looking for any little thing to pick apart gets more attention. The easiest attack to make is, “this [media] is just a poor man’s [other media].”

I hear this a lot about the stories I write. This is just like x or y or z. It is not original or unique, or it is just too cliched. I mean, yes, _something_ in the story is going to be repetitive. But the unrealistic expectations people have these days is that it that it should be 100% original. don't write stories about humans, write about aliens, but no, alien vs predator covered that.. it is never ending.

They’re gonna be mad when they learn that Star Wars is derivative haha
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