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Create No-JavaScript friendly sites

garron.blog

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Re: Create No-JavaScript friendly sites

#81

Post by notJim »

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #40
matthoiland wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've spent most of my career as a front end developer. We have three tools in our toolbox: HTML, CSS, and Javascript. We need them all and will push each to the extreme to create better experiences for our users and reimagine what the web can become. I also work in the healthcare space with heavy HIPAA security requirements. Like any language/framework/platform there are best practices to follow for solid security an…

> and will push each to the extreme to create better experiences for our users and reimagine what the web can become. OMG. For this 'better experience' and 'reimagining what the web can become' did you bother to ask the users you pretend to cater for? No? Listen carefully: the only experience I want from any website is to get to it, get the info I want, then I fuck off sharpish. I do not want 'experience' or any bloo…

The obnoxious thing about this comment is that we often do ask users. Every company I've worked at does user testing and surveys, etc, and no one has ever complained about this stuff. Users do get excited for more interactivity and intuitive functionality, which is easiest to build in Javascript. You're assuming we haven't asked, when actually we have, and everyone else disagrees with you.

Re: Create No-JavaScript friendly sites

#82

Post by hombre_fatal »

mrspeaker wrote: post #55

I love JavaScript, but no longer trust websites to use it responsibly. There are too many vectors for tracking, so I'm forced to block. I do way too many random clicks in a day to allow JS by default. Half the pages I land on now say "you need JS to view this site", and that's totally their decision! I close the tab and do something else: they get to use JavaScript, I save a bunch of time and procrastinate less... wi…

Well, it's just as bad as native apps now. At least you can trivially block things in web browsers.

Re: Create No-JavaScript friendly sites

#83

Post by gwbas1c »

I recently wrote a blog engine as a way to learn some technologies I haven't used.

For static pages, I only use in-browser JavaScript to format dates to the reader's locale. If, for some reason, the JavaScript doesn't run, the date will just be formatted a little differently than I'd like.

Not too big of a deal.

Re: Create No-JavaScript friendly sites

#84

Post by Beldin »

jchook wrote: post #52
austincheney wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can perform analytics almost as well from just the HTTP headers, you don’t need JS at all for fingerprinting, and hijacked NPM modules are probably still present even if there is no JS pushed into the browser.

Curious, how do you do fingerprinting without JS? User agent, header order, etc? How well does it work?

Basically, each layer of any implementation of the OSI stack will have its own peculiarities. E.g. there's a paper on re-identifying computers via TCP clock drift.

How well they work depends on the amount of effort you're putting in. Since Javascript is easy and offers a very rich attack surface, there seems to be little rain to really plunge the depths of other layers.

Re: Create No-JavaScript friendly sites

#85

Post by danielskogly »

a1369209993 wrote: post #63
throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And my response was a big thank you but some serious doubts. I'm asking for no JS when it is reasonable, and what you are trying to do is accommodate my unreasonable requirements. If I may repost past of what I said there: "I should clarify, I'm only moaning about JS used where it need not be, in the display of text and pictures. Essentially, stativc web pages. There are guys on this thread who are trying to make app…

Pretty much this. If you're actually shipping a web app (canonical example being a HTML5 video game), use Javascript; that's what it's for. A newpaper (/ blog / search engine / forum / user signup / image gallery / video gallery (as opposed to player, although that should have clearly marked links to inert mp4-or-equivalent files) / file hosting service) is not a fucking app , but that doesn't mean nothing is. (Note:…

I completely agree, and acknowledge that there are plenty of web apps that just can't work without JS [0][1][2]. It's the middle ground of web apps that I think might have the most to gain - web apps that _can_ provide their main functionality without JS, like Asana, GitLab, Product Hunt, Pinterest, etc.

[0] https://audiomass.co/ [1] https://html5gamepad.com/ [2] https://agar.io/

Re: Create No-JavaScript friendly sites

#86

Post by danielskogly »

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #15

I applaud sites that work without Javascript. The sad reality is that the enormous popularity of SPA frameworks like React and Angular make this possibility a small fraction of important sites — e.g. I don’t know if any banking or investment website that works without JavaScript. Maybe this is less important as app-culture supplants such sites.

Both of those frameworks support SSR, and can then be made to work without JS on the client side for many use cases.

Re: Create No-JavaScript friendly sites

#87

Post by ratww »

jchook wrote: post #52
austincheney wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can perform analytics almost as well from just the HTTP headers, you don’t need JS at all for fingerprinting, and hijacked NPM modules are probably still present even if there is no JS pushed into the browser.

Curious, how do you do fingerprinting without JS? User agent, header order, etc? How well does it work?

Cookie?

Re: Create No-JavaScript friendly sites

#88

Post by TedDoesntTalk »

superkuh wrote: post #70
TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #15

I applaud sites that work without Javascript. The sad reality is that the enormous popularity of SPA frameworks like React and Angular make this possibility a small fraction of important sites — e.g. I don’t know if any banking or investment website that works without JavaScript. Maybe this is less important as app-culture supplants such sites.

Most sites aren't important sites and most sites aren't handling monetary transactions or private information. Most sites have no dynamic content. Most sites don't need javascript at all and all it does it makes things worse. Most devs need to stop taking the crap tools they're forced to use at their paid job and using them for their personal websites.

I agree. Unfortunately, it seems that Most Devs either don't agree with us or don't care.

Re: Create No-JavaScript friendly sites

#89

Post by ativzzz »

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #40
matthoiland wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've spent most of my career as a front end developer. We have three tools in our toolbox: HTML, CSS, and Javascript. We need them all and will push each to the extreme to create better experiences for our users and reimagine what the web can become. I also work in the healthcare space with heavy HIPAA security requirements. Like any language/framework/platform there are best practices to follow for solid security an…

> and will push each to the extreme to create better experiences for our users and reimagine what the web can become. OMG. For this 'better experience' and 'reimagining what the web can become' did you bother to ask the users you pretend to cater for? No? Listen carefully: the only experience I want from any website is to get to it, get the info I want, then I fuck off sharpish. I do not want 'experience' or any bloo…

The people who share your sentiment are a tiny minority, like IE users.

Re: Create No-JavaScript friendly sites

#90

Post by dreamcompiler »

Most of my web browsing experience these days involves moving the dancing monkeys out of my way so I can read the content. Nobody comes to your site to see the ads or take your survey or sign up for your email list. Nobody comes to your site hoping to have to click again and again to read the content. Nobody comes to your site hoping to have you explain to them what a cookie is for the 10,000th time and then be forced to click "OK!" before they can read your content. Nobody comes to your site hoping to have their browser fingerprinted so you can track them around the web and sell their personal information.

With very few exceptions you are using Javascript not to enhance your users' experience but to make war on them, and if that applies to you I wish you would leave technology and take up farming.

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