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How many of you know that the team is working on something that no-one wants?

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Re: How many of you know that the team is working on something that no-one wants?

#81

“Agile teams that truly iterate with the customer can often avoid these problems because the customer is there the whole way through and the team continuously pivots to close gaps discovered by the customer throughout the project, thereby building something the customer actually needs and wants.” I‘m 2 years into my first role as a product owner (made the switch from design) and working at a fortune 100. The thing th…

Customers can be a nightmare simply because they don't want to be closely involved and on their end, they usually are not engineers so the requirements can easily not make sense. I don't blame people for avoiding such tasks, especially in a Fortune 100. The bigger the company, the more diffuse responsibility and the harder it is to steer the ship anyway.

It's worse when they /do/ want to be closely involved, but then also thinks that being closely involved means dictating functionality to a T.

Using software does not translate remotely well into /designing/ software. Too many people want to play small-time user interface designer while realistically having no design knowledge beyond "I've used software before, and I have IDEAS about how to do things better."

So much effort is wasted on implementing things people think they need, having recognized a problem and conceived one idea that might solve it if only someone could implement their vision.

I sometimes envision a world where (layperson) patients show up at a hospital with a medical condition, describe a novel surgical treatment to the physicians, and then the physicians follow their instructions exactly because, hey, why not? It might work! There definitely won't be consequences if it doesn't!

Re: How many of you know that the team is working on something that no-one wants?

#82

Obviously using a throwaway here. Our board members got it into their heads that successful companies must have an AI "play", so they instructed the CEO to invest about 10% of our development budget on AI. We are doing absolutely inane projects that have no hope of succeeding. We serve a niche industry where certified professionals have to do certain tasks personally, instead of being able to delegate to secretaries.…

Ha. CTO at my last place did something similar. He hired an AI/ML team. I asked him what projects he had in mind and he said once the team was on board they'd find things to do. He also said we needed a voice app because he read an article about the size of the market. I quit before seeing how any of that worked out.

Re: How many of you know that the team is working on something that no-one wants?

#83

Obviously using a throwaway here. Our board members got it into their heads that successful companies must have an AI "play", so they instructed the CEO to invest about 10% of our development budget on AI. We are doing absolutely inane projects that have no hope of succeeding. We serve a niche industry where certified professionals have to do certain tasks personally, instead of being able to delegate to secretaries.…

what about human augmented ai? that is what successful ai companies use

Re: How many of you know that the team is working on something that no-one wants?

#85

“Agile teams that truly iterate with the customer can often avoid these problems because the customer is there the whole way through and the team continuously pivots to close gaps discovered by the customer throughout the project, thereby building something the customer actually needs and wants.” I‘m 2 years into my first role as a product owner (made the switch from design) and working at a fortune 100. The thing th…

You work in a fortune 100 company, welcome to bureaucracy.

Those middle managers do not give a shit because they are middle management! Big companies have tons of people like who's only motivation is to simply not get fired (this is one point the movie Office Space nailed by the way.)

A fish rots from the head. If your executive leadership is not obsessed with its customers, nobody else will be. And you guys will continue to be rudderless which is demoralizing.

Big, fat, companies get lazy and that sucks for a guy who wants to make a difference. Go work somewhere that encourages logical (black/white) thinking and values engineers who want to turn customers into raging fans.

Or just work each day enough to not get fired, and build your own product on the side.

Re: How many of you know that the team is working on something that no-one wants?

#86
post #17

Obviously using a throwaway here. Our board members got it into their heads that successful companies must have an AI "play", so they instructed the CEO to invest about 10% of our development budget on AI. We are doing absolutely inane projects that have no hope of succeeding. We serve a niche industry where certified professionals have to do certain tasks personally, instead of being able to delegate to secretaries.…

Just pivot to "assisted-AI" where your solution is really bad but it adds "super-powers" to all their existing employees. It may give cover to some other businesses to fire staff under the "force-multiplier" argument that your software adds ("If their software makes every employee 33% better, we can fire 33% of our staff!").

On the other side you could have this pretty good AI, which can be made amazing just by adding a human step to it.

Re: How many of you know that the team is working on something that no-one wants?

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but at least we can now tell investors we are a keen company with an AI play up our sleeve Obviously I don't know the details of your company situation, but I've experienced myself over the years, that sometimes it can be less overall cost and trouble to give this kind of lip service , rather than fighting an overwhelming fashionable trend until that trend runs its natural course to extinction. > Team motivation is…

Well, it sounds so weird but intriguing. Do you mind telling the rest of the story?

The story would probably make little sense to most HN readers, since it's very old and what was very non-obvious back then, became very obvious 5 years later.

Around 1994/95 client/server was unassailable in board rooms (much like AI is now). And after initially speaking up against it, I ended up shutting up about my criticism of that architectural approach, since it would have just gotten me fired.

So I ended up sneaking some early Internet technologies into a big client/server project I managed. Doing that ended up benefiting those developers in future jobs, and the company, because they didn't have to re-write that part so quickly. :-)

Re: How many of you know that the team is working on something that no-one wants?

#88

Obviously using a throwaway here. Our board members got it into their heads that successful companies must have an AI "play", so they instructed the CEO to invest about 10% of our development budget on AI. We are doing absolutely inane projects that have no hope of succeeding. We serve a niche industry where certified professionals have to do certain tasks personally, instead of being able to delegate to secretaries.…

It could be worse... you could be at a company where using such technology is banned... because marketing and sales are scared of the blowback.

Re: How many of you know that the team is working on something that no-one wants?

#89
Don't want this to turn into a big politics tangent, but I've thought that one use case for a tech workers union is to be able to push back against questionable business decisions from management.

I've seen places where engineers and other ICs, some team leads and managers, those with far more experience and clout at me, voice skepticism against questionable product decisions coming from upper management, only to receive nothing in response. Even when these decisions involve infeasible engineering forecasts, leadership stay the course. The worst they might get is some uncomfortable questions from the most bold, outspoken senior or staff engineers during all-hands. And the response is usually some stock party line about staying the course and everything will work out. Sometimes, this is coupled with toxic cultures that prevent people from truly speaking out.

Beyond fighting for better labor conditions, an intracompany tech worker organization should be able to push back against bad management decisions. Imagine if your engineering guild had power not just to determine the tech stack or coordinate between teams, but also to check the power of management on product and technical decisions, or even question strategic business decisions.

People imagine tech unions will just be a rehash of Industrial Era blue collar unions, but they have the potential to be something more- a way for the rank and file to finally have the clout to push back against bad engineering decisions from poor leadership.

Sure, you can say disgruntled engineers can just leave, or companies with bad management cultures should deserve to fail. But that just seems like defeatism. It seems like a form of capitalism that promotes throwaway, wasteful behavior. If employees have valid concerns, but management ignores them, doesn't it seem like a shame for an organization to decline and the product to die because of no one could oppose management's mistakes? What about the customers?

Re: How many of you know that the team is working on something that no-one wants?

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have had a couple conversations where a business guy starts off with a decent idea then he says something like "the cognitive AI module will fill out your expense report after watching you do it for a couple weeks". What the fuck? If I had the ability to code a cognitive AI module which could do that I would not be building it for you, I would solve self driving and license the software for billions.

Business guys usually comes together and brag about their works. Quite often, they start to talk about things they heard but don’t understand much. And the other one hear about it, get excited, but also don’t understand much. Then on the meeting, he brought the idea up and convince everyone to do it. The next you know, you’re pulling your hair out trying to understand what is going on

This happens way too often. They often read a blog that talks about how X was implemented at company Y and mindlessly cite the blog for their own related-but-different-in-important-ways ideas and it’s upto the engineers to fact check the wackiness. It’s not pleasant.

This happened to me recently where a PM shared a blog about someone who had built an “all encompassing multi cloud cost calculator” for their org and had blogged about it. The PM was naturally extremely excited but I asked him to find more details about the tool and if/how that can be used. Turns out even though it was supposedly open sourced it wasn’t really available to just anyone but the author promised he would release it in a month. That was over 6 months ago, no word from the author or PM.

These blog fueled hype trains are extremely destructive. It makes engineering appear trivial. Building useful tool might be easier now but it’s not trivial. And if a tool sounds too good to be true it probably is.

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