Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site • Hacker News Board

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#81

Post by pbhjpbhj » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 10:02 AM UTC

ComputerGuru wrote: post #27

I warned about this very outcome when they announced the initiative [0]. The Internet Archive is too big and too important to gamble on this short term of a win (giving everyone free and unlimited access to all books for a few months at most). Assuming the organization continues to exist after this ordeal, their entire board should step down for putting at risk one of the most invaluable archives in existence. I’m an…

Isn't it better to have people learn from their mistakes (if this is a mistake) - at least, perhaps, learn to be more circumspect - rather than just getting rid of people who have experience of making mistakes?

I hate that whole thing about requiring people to resign because they made a mistake (if it's genuine); obviously a pattern of mistakes is different. An obvious blunder would also be different, where it was self-evidently wrong and lacked mitigation.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#82

Post by vinay427 » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 10:05 AM UTC

efreak wrote: post #78

ascorbic wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most public libraries have ebook lending, and there are lots of free sources that don't pose an existential threat to the archive

I know only a comparatively small number of people who own library cards. You cannot check out an ebook from the library without a library card. You cannot get a lovely card without physically entering the library. If you did not have a library card when the library closed, or you left it unused until it expired, then you cannot check out ebooks from the public library. Last I checked, there was, I think, 3 public li…

A tangent, but I'm really glad California allows any state resident to use any public library in the state. In the state where I grew up, I was fortunate to live in a town with excellent library resources, but it was not something everyone in the state could enjoy even if they were willing to travel to another town. There's still a very noticeable difference between the library systems in different towns in CA, but at least one can still register and utilize online resources (assuming they visit in-person once if that's needed to register).

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#83

Post by ssss11 » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 10:08 AM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #81

ComputerGuru wrote: post #27

I warned about this very outcome when they announced the initiative [0]. The Internet Archive is too big and too important to gamble on this short term of a win (giving everyone free and unlimited access to all books for a few months at most). Assuming the organization continues to exist after this ordeal, their entire board should step down for putting at risk one of the most invaluable archives in existence. I’m an…

Isn't it better to have people learn from their mistakes (if this is a mistake) - at least, perhaps, learn to be more circumspect - rather than just getting rid of people who have experience of making mistakes? I hate that whole thing about requiring people to resign because they made a mistake (if it's genuine); obviously a pattern of mistakes is different. An obvious blunder would also be different, where it was se…

The board are in that role because they’ve made the mistakes and are now experts who can avoid them and are truested to. If its an obvious mistake they shouldnt be board members.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#84

Post by ericathegreat » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 10:14 AM UTC

Scientificx wrote: post #38

mikequinlan wrote: post #16

I would love to support the Internet Archive but the people behind it deliberately took steps that were guaranteed to bankrupt them once the publishers filed their (inevitable) lawsuit. Why would I support an organization that is determined to commit suicide?

> I would love to support the Internet Archive but the people behind it deliberately took steps that were guaranteed to bankrupt them once the publishers filed their (inevitable) lawsuit. Why would I support an organization that is determined to commit suicide? Because they hold a part of our digital history.

That's a tricky precedent to set though, isn't it? If you do sufficiently good work elsewhere in your organization, you can break the law without penalty? That's like McDonalds claiming that they should be allowed to mistreat their workers because they also run a children's charity.

Doing a right thing doesn't grant you immunity when you do a wrong thing. And there was no question that what they did was illegal. Many thousands of people told them that the moment they announced they were planning to do it, they didn't even need legal counsel to point that out. They did it anyway.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#85

Post by pbhjpbhj » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 10:18 AM UTC

ascorbic wrote: post #10

The publishers should stop now that they've taken them down, but this was grossly irresponsible of the Internet Archive to do this, and they brought it on themselves. Releasing all of these copyrighted books for free hurt authors who rely on royalties to live, and it was inevitable that publishers would sue. I honestly don't understand why they did it. They have a responsibility as custodians of the archive to not pu…

>Releasing all of these copyrighted books for free hurt authors who rely on royalties to live, //

That's not at all self-evident, indeed quite likely false.

We had a similar discussion here a few times and content/program creators have said they made more money when their product was also available free - people tried it and bought it.

That probably only works for content creators who's stuff is good - publishers still want to sell stuff that's not good but just is packaged as if it were.

People who want free literature will find it, regardless of whether publishers consent.

As a sidenote, game publishers appear to be using a model of giving away an older game when a sequel is due out - it a similar game from the same company. Naturally one might think that this would eat in to potential profits, but I'm assuming they get more users for the new game, or at least profit more overall this way.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#86

Post by cygx » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 10:19 AM UTC

basilgohar wrote: post #54

ascorbic wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you think there were no people at all who downloaded for free rather than paying, then it cost authors royalty payments.

By exactly this same line of reasoning, don't libraries present a loss of revenue for publishers because people can borrow a book that they otherwise would have to pay for and purchase? One book may be borrowed hundreds, if not thousands of times.

Hence the existence of Public Lending Right programs[1] in some countries. In Germany for example, libaries do need to pay a fee per loan (3-4 cent according to Wikipedia).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Lending_Right

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#87

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 10:24 AM UTC

HellsMaddy wrote: post #61

I'm surprised and disappointed that the IA ever thought this would go over well, though I do respect the reasons for which they took these actions. Circumstances around the COVID-19 lockdowns have been very unusual. If you consider the hundreds of millions (+?) of books in libraries around the world that were temporarily inaccessible to people, including children and students, I feel the IA's actions were somewhat ju…

[deleted]

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#88

Post by AmericanChopper » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 10:27 AM UTC

som33 wrote: post #67

AmericanChopper wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copyright is neither moral nor immoral. It simply gives people who create content the ability to exercise certain property rights over that content for a certain period of time. There would be nothing immoral about abolishing copyright, but if you did then you could be sure that a lot less people would be willing to spend years writing the books you enjoy reading, or millions of dollars creating the TV shows and movi…

>Copyright is neither moral nor immoral. Except you're wrong, idea's are not rivalrous goods. Imagine if someone copyrighted the alphabet and we had to pay $5 a word. Rent seeking puts a damper on global productivity by allowing people to take information hostage. It can also be used as a tool for censorship. Right now copyright is censoring culture and I'm watching videogame history being destroyed on the PC due to…

As I said:

> Whether or not you think the existing copyright laws have exceeded their purpose is a completely different discussion

Bringing up another completely seperate category of abuse is again another completely different discussion, and completely not relevant to this one.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#89

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 10:29 AM UTC

I have three favorite properties on the web: Wikipedia, the Khan Academy and the Internet Archive.

Whoever thought this was a good idea should own up to it and step down, this was a dumb move if there ever was one and risking one of the prime - and very fragile - properties on the web like this was highly irresponsible. Keep in mind that IA already has plenty of enemies who are continuously monitoring it and hoping to find a way to shut them down, then hand them this sort of thing on a golden platter. Beyond stupid, really.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#90

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 10:30 AM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #49

ComputerGuru wrote: post #27

I warned about this very outcome when they announced the initiative [0]. The Internet Archive is too big and too important to gamble on this short term of a win (giving everyone free and unlimited access to all books for a few months at most). Assuming the organization continues to exist after this ordeal, their entire board should step down for putting at risk one of the most invaluable archives in existence. I’m an…

If you want to establish a legal precedent, you can't just go to a court and ask them to. Courts only hear "cases and controversies" -- to establish what the law is, you have to get somebody to sue you. The reason this could bankrupt them is mostly because they don't have a lot of money. Their net assets are only a couple million dollars. They have to raise more than that every year just to keep operating. But it's a…

Cloned from a Monty Python production: you're only making it worse...