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Google Is Not God of the Web

bilge.world

81–90 of 306 posts

Re: Google Is Not God of the Web

#81

Not sure what this article is arguing. Sometimes you want to make a slow website that doesn't fit well on a phone screen? Leaving aside the fact that you can of course do that, and that if I'm using a search engine on my phone I probably (usually?) don't want to look at your slow site that I have to horizontally scroll... > Modern web design principles are very rarely directed at regular people looking to make a webs…

Sometimes you want to make a slow website that doesn't fit well on a phone screen?

Sometimes you should have the choice of making a slow web site that doesn't fit on the phone screen. A large corporation shouldn't dictate how you present your information.

Sometimes you want to put a document on the web without having to pay someone to run on Google's treadmill of changing standards and policies for the rest of your life.

I'll take a crappy-looking web site with good content over an SEO-pumped disaster that provided no information.

Craigslist, eBay, and dozens of others didn't get to be huge because of their good looks.

Re: Google Is Not God of the Web

#82
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes Because of the market dominance

How did they come to have that market dominance? I don't recall them advertising until recently

How did they come to have that market dominance?

By purchasing potential competitors before they got big.

Re: Google Is Not God of the Web

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, I'd be interested in an alternative web where ingenuity and risk-taking would be utterly forbidden. Just HTML, and a very basic subset at that. No Javascript at all, no CSS. So much of the web would be better and more universally usable without "modern" cruft.

Who decides what is and isn't cruft? You? Is data journalism cruft? Are web applications? Is Google Office cruft? What about the web application my parents have been using to order groceries during the pandemic - that has loads of JS, and loads of CSS to make it readable to anyone over 40. Does that qualify as cruft? Are dyslexia friendly styelsheets cruft? Is Google Maps cruft? It's full of JavaScript. Are browser g…

Most of that doesn't belong on the alternative web I have in mind. It can keep living on the current one.

Usability features like dyslexia friendly fonts, large fonts, etc., belong in the browser, not on a web page. If anything, this would be easier on the alternative web.

The key idea would be that when you go to a URL on this alternative web, you know you're not going to get slammed with some cycle-sucking, RAM-sucking, virus-carrying, UI horror. More gopher-ish, but relatable to those who have used a web browser.

I can dream.

edit: Ha. Right now, this comment has 6 points, and my original above has -2 points. My illusions of HN rationality are thus reduced. sniff

Re: Google Is Not God of the Web

#84
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is always the trade-off between higher quality through what is essentially regulation and standards and squeezing out those who don't comply (which disadvantages new entrants). With drugs, we weight that trade-off heavily towards higher quality over new entrants. The question is, is that an acceptable trade off on the web? Reading this, I now think I should go put AMP on my personal blog. Before that, I needed…

Push a static site to netlify for free and all of this is taken care of you for free. The burden is necessary given the proliferation of bad actors I would not recommend AMP, but there are dozens of standards that are not part of what the public sees, low level enough they don't care to see. These are the important things Google has caused the world to adopt as best practices. You don't have to have http, but you are…

> The burden is necessary given the proliferation of bad actors

But the bad actors don't really abuse technical standards. They abuse links. The only part in Google's list of criteria that has largely remained untouched in the last two decades and is still the factor for ranking. So much so, that I'm confident that, if ranking factor relevance was a search result, the first page would just be the same result over and over: Links.

That's the reason for the centralization of power: those with more links will be ranked on the top, will have more visibility and, you guessed it, get more links. Guess what happens: they then start to sell either links or they rent out subdomains and folders on their website.

Google, as a company, does not care about bad actors. Some teams in Google do, but they are not the ones setting the policies.

Re: Google Is Not God of the Web

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this were true chrome would ship with ad block and they would accept cold hard cash for their services.

I tried this, I used it, no big adoption, product got killed. Largely people prefer the free perception of the internet and wouldn't pay the prices it would cost if direct payments were made. I believe its in the $x00s per year

> Largely people prefer the free perception of the internet

You have any reasoning behind this or are you taking the people who killed the product at face value? If I were to guess that product (i have no idea to what you’re referring) was designed to fail, like youtube premium.

Re: Google Is Not God of the Web

#87

Not sure what this article is arguing. Sometimes you want to make a slow website that doesn't fit well on a phone screen? Leaving aside the fact that you can of course do that, and that if I'm using a search engine on my phone I probably (usually?) don't want to look at your slow site that I have to horizontally scroll... > Modern web design principles are very rarely directed at regular people looking to make a webs…

The author seems to argue:

- Small size is not always better, especially when the wait may be worth it for the audience

- Minimalistic design is not always necessary, and in fact it's a good idea to take some risks in the other direction, if it could result in a desired outcome

- Google doesn't have an intrinsic right to dictate best practices. In fact, the idea of a single set of best practices runs counter to the spirit of the web, in which a website can be a creative or cultural experience which transcends convention.

- In addition, on that last item: The web _can be_ more than what it is now. So monolithic standards could easily get in the way.

- Google is going to hold an event and tell visitors how to conduct "modern web development." The author is not comfortable with Google's singular focus on Google's preferred standard and mode of web development being The Only Way, so they are going to attend and push back.

It's a good post. Even the headline by itself resonates in a lot of different ways, especially if you've spent a lot of time on the receiving end of Google's dev messaging.

Speaking more broadly, quite often the blanket design advice given to web enthusiasts and subjective-values-driven creatives comes from the economic side of the web. It starts from "don't annoy your users" and draws a (suspiciously) straight line from there directly to "Largest Contentful Paint". This represents a potentially huge, complicating energy drain for a project that may have a lot of other important design parameters to start with.

In another way, it changes the question. The web wasn't designed as a way to get your customers really specific information as quickly as possible. There's so much more to it than that.

A lot of HN users are researchers from the economics-first side of things though, not artists, so this may be a bit hard to understand. It's like hearing yet another friend tell you they've signed on for a liberal arts degree.

Such researcher-consumers (who incidentally write some amazing online reviews, but that's another story) are also well known for getting frustrated at the slightest delay or sales pitch. Art on the web can end up, therefore, being perceived as a broken web experience, a bad sales pitch for an ephemeral and vapid product, as opposed to something which inspires or changes viewpoints. "I can't even find the site map!"

The web doesn't even have to be users-first--quite often what's best is a series of standards and compromises that alternately put creators and users first at different points.

Re: Google Is Not God of the Web

#88
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What did Google ever do for us?

How many Google services and systems do you rely on each day?

Nothing that they actually made themselves after I (I'm not OP) have stopped using Google search, it's just YouTube now.

What has Google actually created that's successful, in house, other than search & gmail?

Re: Google Is Not God of the Web

#89

Not sure what this article is arguing. Sometimes you want to make a slow website that doesn't fit well on a phone screen? Leaving aside the fact that you can of course do that, and that if I'm using a search engine on my phone I probably (usually?) don't want to look at your slow site that I have to horizontally scroll... > Modern web design principles are very rarely directed at regular people looking to make a webs…

Sometimes you want to make a slow website that doesn't fit well on a phone screen? Sometimes you should have the choice of making a slow web site that doesn't fit on the phone screen. A large corporation shouldn't dictate how you present your information. Sometimes you want to put a document on the web without having to pay someone to run on Google's treadmill of changing standards and policies for the rest of your l…

I think we’re at the point with the internet where modern design is inversely proportional to good content. I find more stuff on half-forgotten .edu sites, old.reddit threads, and weird forums than anything “responsive” nowadays. Most of the nice looking sites are just regurgitating stuff from the older, rougher ones anyway.

Re: Google Is Not God of the Web

#90

Not sure what this article is arguing. Sometimes you want to make a slow website that doesn't fit well on a phone screen? Leaving aside the fact that you can of course do that, and that if I'm using a search engine on my phone I probably (usually?) don't want to look at your slow site that I have to horizontally scroll... > Modern web design principles are very rarely directed at regular people looking to make a webs…

Sometimes you want to make a slow website that doesn't fit well on a phone screen? Sometimes you should have the choice of making a slow web site that doesn't fit on the phone screen. A large corporation shouldn't dictate how you present your information. Sometimes you want to put a document on the web without having to pay someone to run on Google's treadmill of changing standards and policies for the rest of your l…

Sometimes you can choose to make a website whose sole purpose isn't to attract Google Search traffic, and that's OK! Not every website has to rank in Google Search to be useful.
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