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How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

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Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#81

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

mmsimanga wrote: post #73
slyslacker wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Significantly expanding police training, and greater coverage of topics such as nonviolent de-escalation, community outreach, implicit bias training, and how to work with mentally ill individuals. Greater accountability through body cam programs, and community oversight boards for police departments everywhere. De-militarization of police, because right now, the police can legally buy surplus military gear and use it…

You suggestion make sense to me, why haven't they been implemented? Is it lack of political will or lack of money?

There's just no procedure to implement police reforms nationally in the US right now; the police in each city are entirely independent, answerable only to their city government, and generally represent an important political bloc. In many cities, the reforms have happened and the general public doesn't really have a problem with the police. In others, there just hasn't been the political will to push meaningful reforms past the police union.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#82

Post by 082349872349872 »

vixen99 wrote: post #31
tobyhinloopen wrote: post #2

love that guy. Great write.

For those who have a different view (if that's allowed) https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/05/obama-administration-...

When Obama left office, he apologised to Argentina for the US involvement in the guerra sucia.

I read one of Hanson's books. He recalls that he didn't like academia because, unlike his own farm, he couldn't order people with whom he disagreed off his land.

After reading this article, I think Hanson probably is disappointed that there are not more lefties thrown out of helicopters, but I am not more informed as to what his counter-suggestions to "reform at the local and state level" may be.

Pat Buchanan, in my opinion, was a much more convincing National Review columnist.

Obviously they differ on how to get there, but can the US right agree with the US left on "with liberty, and justice, for all"? It's an excellent sounding ideal.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#83

Post by luckylion »

Press2forEN wrote: post #79
mwseibel wrote: post #29

I think it’s time for America’s leaders to stand up and organize our citizens in order to make long lasting policy changes. Citizens are paying attention. I want there to be a great American debate about what these changes should be. The world is watching and the American system is being tested. Let’s meet the challenge and be the example we want to see in the world. Clearly America is nowhere near perfect but with e…

> I think it’s time for America’s leaders to stand up and organize our citizens in order to make long lasting policy changes. Ok, and one third of the people support those policies and one third doesn't, and both thirds will fight each other tooth-and-nail. What then?

Obviously the third that OP supports should decide, as they are good and the others are evil.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#84

Post by jmull »

mmastrac wrote: post #22
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #15

> So let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. Taboos around violence for political are one of the crucial building blocks for a functioning democracy. If those taboos are broken, even for a good cause, you set a precedence that violence works. And the next cause won’t be as good. One only has to look at the lessons of the Roman Revolution that started with the murder of Grachus, and ended w…

I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. The non-violent protests of Colin Kaepernick were mocked and used to rally the other side and just weren't effective. The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is…

> The MLK quote is trotted out pretty often, but "a riot is the language of the unheard".

MLK Jr was unequivocally non-violent. That quote was in the context of explaining the root cause of the rioting, not condoning or endorsing it.

Don't trust anyone trying to tell you MLK Jr would have supported violent protests.

They are either trying to manipulate you or sadly ignorant (or both, of course). In either case they have it wrong, in terms of history and in the implication that violent protest will lead to any kind of progress or justice.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#85

Post by Avicebron »

austincheney wrote: post #80
kajumix wrote: post #35

"I’ve heard some suggest that the recurrent problem of racial bias in our criminal justice system proves that only protests and direct action can bring about change, and that voting and participation in electoral politics is a waste of time. I couldn’t disagree more. The point of protest is to raise public awareness... But eventually, aspirations have to be translated into specific laws and institutional practices —…

> Voting and democracy should not become a device to placate the dissatisfied masses into silence, make them lineup for ballot, to choose a lesser evil who, in most likelihood, will turn out to be a egotistical power-seeker. What else should you expect when people are limited to only two political parties? It could be worse with only one political party.

I'm not sure we just need more political parties, yes it would be nice. But we really need to work on disentangling how deep economic anti-humanist incentives and policy have embedded themselves within both parties.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#86

Post by evan_ »

mmsimanga wrote: post #73
slyslacker wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Significantly expanding police training, and greater coverage of topics such as nonviolent de-escalation, community outreach, implicit bias training, and how to work with mentally ill individuals. Greater accountability through body cam programs, and community oversight boards for police departments everywhere. De-militarization of police, because right now, the police can legally buy surplus military gear and use it…

You suggestion make sense to me, why haven't they been implemented? Is it lack of political will or lack of money?

The police get unbelievably huge amounts of money (like serious amounts of money) so it's not that.

Yesterday police in Columbus, Ohio replaced the American flag flying outside of their headquarters with a "Blue line" police flag. Just hours ago representatives of our nation's largest police force, the NYPD, posted on twitter the home address of the mayor's adult daughter.

It's a lack of political will, but that's kind of putting it mildly- it would be more accurate to say that the politicians are afraid of the police.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#87

Post by sokoloff »

systemvoltage wrote: post #55
kajumix wrote: post #35

"I’ve heard some suggest that the recurrent problem of racial bias in our criminal justice system proves that only protests and direct action can bring about change, and that voting and participation in electoral politics is a waste of time. I couldn’t disagree more. The point of protest is to raise public awareness... But eventually, aspirations have to be translated into specific laws and institutional practices —…

One big problem is that the elected after being elected, choose to not follow or dilute those promises. There is no accountability. So time and again, democracy fails as they just change their minds after being elected. There is this "damping" factor like a mechanical system, that takes the energy out of the people's hands and dampens it with lobbying, dishonesty, unaccountability and complete neglect for public inte…

I’m not sure it’s quite so simple as “they change their mind”. In a republic where deal-making has to happen, if you ran on W, X, Y, and Z, you might have to compromise on Z to get W, X, and a watered-down version of Y. Doesn’t mean you changed your mind on Z or strict-Y, but you can’t get everything you want because other Americans want other things and they can’t get everything they want either. Maybe a lesser politician would only have gotten W and half of X...

I’m not sure what penalty would be appropriate that would be better than standing for re-election and having the people weigh in. Voters who were strict-Y or any-Z might choose to not vote to re-elect. Voters who care about and got more X than par and a little bit of Y would be inclined to re-elect.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#88

Post by bbatsell »

devalgo wrote: post #62
vkou wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nationwide protests and all of the public outcry could have been enough. We've had protests, for separate occasions, happen years and years and decades ago, and it has not been enough. At which point will it be enough? How many more protests will it take? How many more decades will it take? Is anyone still on the fence on 2020 about whether or not bad cops are being protected by their peers and superiors? Do you ha…

1992 LA Riots caused over a $Billion in damage and 63 people died. Given that the scale of those riots far surpassed anything we're seeing now and given that nearly 30 years later another instance of police brutality preceded the current turmoil isn't it clear that your approach has failed?

LAPD underwent unprecedented reform in the wake of the riots. It’s certainly not a perfect department, but it is exponentially better than it was in 1992. You are making the opposite point you think you are. The riots and DoJ consent decrees are literally the _only_ tactics that have succeeded in the past.

The failure after the riots was that we didn’t treat it as a national problem and undertake systemic reform of our policing systems from root to stem.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#89

Post by vzidex »

marcosdumay wrote: post #54
nradov wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't condone violence, but at the same time you have to acknowledge that modern American democracy was built on the foundation of political violence. It worked for us.

You do not use violence in a democratic protest. To use it is effective acknowledgement that you either want to destroy the democracy or do not believe that it actually exists on the moment.

>do not believe that it actually exists on the moment

Precisely. People have been voting and non-violently protesting for decades, and it hasn't worked.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#90

Post by Avicebron »

supercanuck wrote: post #26
mmastrac wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. The non-violent protests of Colin Kaepernick were mocked and used to rally the other side and just weren't effective. The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is…

violence speaks the language of the non-educated in the short term, but it does more damage in the long run.

On the other hand, the french revolution, the american revolution, and the civil war could be argued to be violent protests for reform that did some good. I think slow erosion of rights and safety nets through quiet periods of apathy does more harm to more people, and becomes harder to reverse in the long run.
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