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Signal PINs

signal.org

81–90 of 199 posts

Re: Signal PINs

#81
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The PIN is a very short key, so the only real protection is that Intel SGX (which notably gets broken every year, and so this doesn't actually work) is preventing people from getting access to the encrypted data to brute force the key; the enclave then enforces some limit on the number of attempts (and maybe some rate limit on the speed of attempts).

The client allows them to be alphanumeric, but the default is 4 numbers. The irritating behaviour of repeatedly asking for it to be entered at awkward times means people will just set it to 1337 and call it a day.

I haven't even opened Signal since hearing about this update, so I don't know how irritating the prompts are, but I did see this in the blog:

>Because Signal doesn’t have access to your keys – or your data – your PIN isn’t recoverable if you forget it, so our apps help you remember your PIN with periodic reminders. Don’t worry, these reminders get less frequent over time.

Having read that, I doubt I'll get too irritated at the reminders and eventually they'll go away. You have a point that anyone who hasn't read the update blog will have no similar hope and might use something easy. I guess I'd hope the Signal user base is more security conscious than that. For instance, I know my PIN is going to be alphanumeric and immediately stored my password database.

Re: Signal PINs

#82
post #5

This really worries me: now the safety of my data hinges on Intel's remote attestation and a password I can remember.

To be fair, you don't need to remember the password unless you lose your phone...won't stop the nagging though.

Re: Signal PINs

#83
post #71
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they've messed up badly with this update. I have several friends who want to get rid of Signal because they could not access their messages until they've set up a PIN. Imagine needing to configure and remember a PIN on the spot when you need to urgently read your messages.

Interesting, mine keeps nagging me at the bottom of the screen every day, but hasn't forced it on me at all yet.

3rd

Re: Signal PINs

#84
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The PIN is a very short key, so the only real protection is that Intel SGX (which notably gets broken every year, and so this doesn't actually work) is preventing people from getting access to the encrypted data to brute force the key; the enclave then enforces some limit on the number of attempts (and maybe some rate limit on the speed of attempts).

The client allows them to be alphanumeric, but the default is 4 numbers. The irritating behaviour of repeatedly asking for it to be entered at awkward times means people will just set it to 1337 and call it a day.

You can fill it in with your password manager at every prompt?

There is a large segment of people who don't like complicated passwords and will not use a password manager, so the PIN scheme w/ advanced options and password manager integration is the way to thread that needle.

Re: Signal PINs

#85
I like the security-mindedness of Signal, but some of their choices baffle me. They go through all this trouble to create an encrypted cloud storage, which many people in the target audience of Signal do not want, while not even giving iOS users the simple option of creating an offline backup of their messages (in fact, they actively disable this option). This issue has been open for more than four years [1] and even has a $1000 bounty [2].

1: https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/issues/967

2: https://www.bountysource.com/issues/28598496-message-export-...

Re: Signal PINs

#86
post #68

I've been using Signal PINs for a long time to lock the app to my SIM card and unfortunately they are a real pain. This sounds exactly the same. First off the app is incessant about asking you to enter your PIN to prove you know it; this prompt is supposed to get less frequent and I suppose it does but is still way too frequent. Some of us are competent at storing secrets in a password manager and this is like a puni…

I've found that tapping next to the registration lock PIN prompt will dismiss it on Android. A "dismiss" button and a "don't ask me again, I won't lose this" checkmark would make much more sense to me.

Re: Signal PINs

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The client allows them to be alphanumeric, but the default is 4 numbers. The irritating behaviour of repeatedly asking for it to be entered at awkward times means people will just set it to 1337 and call it a day.

I used my debit card PIN, so I should be fine right?

[deleted]

Re: Signal PINs

#89
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lobbied for signal, and gotten friends and family to join. Most are annoyed by the PINs and some have left. Their handling of PINs seems quite contrary to their goal of pretty good security for the largest possible number of people. It's VERY frustrating to have your device asking for pins every time you use it. I'm trying to protect from attackers on the internet, not someone who is going to assault me. After a…

That's not what the PINs are for.

What are they for?

Re: Signal PINs

#90

I'm looking forward to hearing how they plan to prevent brute-forcing of these. A physical hardware device can wipe keys after a certain number of failures. I definitely look forward to the ability to move Signal forward to a new device without losing all logs, and the ability to use Signal without tying it to a phone number.

Basically, SGX: https://github.com/signalapp/SecureValueRecovery

The enclave is hardened against Spectre and LVI with this (BOLT/LLVM based), and other techniques: https://github.com/signalapp/BOLT

The last build step before signing is a verifier that checks that there are no missed mitigations, built using Intel Xed, to try to avoid potential missing mitigations due to an LLVM or BOLT bug.

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