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Tolstoy’s Children’s Stories

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Re: Tolstoy’s Children’s Stories

#81
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meaningless violence is too easy, so is ham fisted moralizing. True classics find some kind of meaning, even in the meaninless tragedy of life, like the Iliad.

Agreed, I think the secret is often a kind of subtlety that can often be confused with meaninglessness. For example, the first time I read "Of Mice and Men", I found the "meaningless" suffering to be infuriating - how could this book possibly be considered a classic? - until I later understood more context around the novel's time period and message, and realized it was only my juvenile tastes and expectations that ma…

The Iliad is an example of a classic with a bunch of meaningless suffering. But, the story is much deeper than 'bad stuff happens, the end' or 'bad stuff happens, that's just life'. I can write that kind of story all day, and I appeared deep to myself as a kid because I could 'see through' the meaning. At the end of the day, that sort of story is just boring. A real artist is the one who does get to some kind of coherent meaning to the whole thing. E.g. Iliad is a commentary on the Hellenist virtue ethic, and questioning why an ideally virtuous man like Hector is pulverized by a rage controlled tyrant like Achilles, without merely amounting to the juvenile 'virtue is meaningless' that passes as intellectualism these days. The same question is asked in the Psalms by the writer wondering at the fact that so many good people are oppressed and the wicked flourish. The Iliad began a conversation that echoes deep throughout history even to our present day. 'Bad stuff happens' just doesn't have that kind of staying power. People intuitively know there is more to our reality than that. That's why we are so bothered by sociopaths running our companies and governments. If 'bad stuff happens' is all there is to the story, then we would not be bothered.

Re: Tolstoy’s Children’s Stories

#82
I'll have to check it out. I've always liked the unsanitized endings. The wolf fell upon Red and ate her -- the end. The wolf fell down the chimney and into the stew, and the smartest pig ate him... probably along with a few pieces of his brothers.

There's one in the Grimm Brothers called "The Knapsack, the Hat, and the Horn" that's an incredibly bleak fable about power and corruption.

Re: Tolstoy’s Children’s Stories

#83
post #48

Important point many are missing: Folktales were not originally for children. They were told among adults after children had gone to sleep. But when folklorists (like the Grimm brothers) started collecting and publishing folk tales, it became a trend to publish sanitized edition for children. Read something like the Arabian Nights tales in an uncensored version - these were clearly not intended for children anymore t…

> Folktales were not originally for children. I learned this the hard way. I purchased a beautifully made "Grimm's Complete Fairy Tales" to read to my then toddler. There are some particularly disturbing stories but I was surprised by how many were flat out nonsensical or silly (like The Story of a Boy Who Went Forth to Learn Fear [0]). It's fascinating to read these in their (translated) original form. Not your typi…

It kinda makes sense to me. In the end he learned to shudder with his SO (she did a weird trick but is it that weird?)

Re: Tolstoy’s Children’s Stories

#84
post #48

Important point many are missing: Folktales were not originally for children. They were told among adults after children had gone to sleep. But when folklorists (like the Grimm brothers) started collecting and publishing folk tales, it became a trend to publish sanitized edition for children. Read something like the Arabian Nights tales in an uncensored version - these were clearly not intended for children anymore t…

Were they not for children or did we decide later that children should read bowdlerized forms? After all, I read Arabian Nights uncensored with people cavorting[0] with courtesans and that one with the false sexual assault but with bad defence arguments when I couldn't have been even a teenager.

Also all the Russian stories published translated to English by Pravda involved a lot of violence and head cutting and men trying to sleep with daughters and whatnot.

Turned out all right.

0: Pretty sure that's where I learned the word 'cavorting'.

Re: Tolstoy’s Children’s Stories

#85
For children or for adults, the fatalist style of Tolstoy is what lends him the unmistakable charm. A part of our being, I think, will always desire to be liberated from the norm of not discussing pity or death without any moral undertone. Life and violence can be sad and violent, Tolstoy reminds us.

Re: Tolstoy’s Children’s Stories

#86
post #80
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Knowing Tolstoy's other writings I get the feeling that these one paragraph summaries don't do his prose justice.

I read the original story for "The Lion and the Puppy", and indeed, the summary doesn't do the story justice. The story is more grim and heart-wrecking. And there is no obvious take-away, everything just sucks. But it's a story of a loss that one can relate to. Depressed people are known to listen to sad songs, and get relief from that. I'm not in a very good place now, and reading the Lion and the Puppy story in Rus…

> And that's what Tolstoy was going for, perhaps. No ham-fisted morals. Just carefully crafted vignettes of grim life.

Which is great and a meaning in itself. Much of what’s grim in life happens without deeper meaning. Terrible things happen to those that don’t deserve it and terrible people don’t get what they deserve. The only thing is to accept that that’s how it often is. Which is not a bad thing to expose children to IMO

Re: Tolstoy’s Children’s Stories

#87
post #48

Important point many are missing: Folktales were not originally for children. They were told among adults after children had gone to sleep. But when folklorists (like the Grimm brothers) started collecting and publishing folk tales, it became a trend to publish sanitized edition for children. Read something like the Arabian Nights tales in an uncensored version - these were clearly not intended for children anymore t…

> Folktales were not originally for children. I learned this the hard way. I purchased a beautifully made "Grimm's Complete Fairy Tales" to read to my then toddler. There are some particularly disturbing stories but I was surprised by how many were flat out nonsensical or silly (like The Story of a Boy Who Went Forth to Learn Fear [0]). It's fascinating to read these in their (translated) original form. Not your typi…

I must be broken because this is reasonably sensible to me. The boy was too naive and his life too austere to know fear, and thus was able to survive the night (and his other challenges). It wasn't until he knew what it was to have a warm bed, food and a wife that he was able to shudder with fear.

Re: Tolstoy’s Children’s Stories

#88
post #48

Important point many are missing: Folktales were not originally for children. They were told among adults after children had gone to sleep. But when folklorists (like the Grimm brothers) started collecting and publishing folk tales, it became a trend to publish sanitized edition for children. Read something like the Arabian Nights tales in an uncensored version - these were clearly not intended for children anymore t…

On the other hand I am not quite sure what these people told their kids and if one can apply the same standards. I think people used to be more cruel than they are now, for example public executions were drawing huge crowds. Also mortality was higher and people died at a younger age, especially child mortality used to be much higher. The concept and meaning of childhood was probably not exactly the same as today, child labor was quite common. As a result I don't quite know how to read the cruelty in original folk tales.

In addition to that you can't tell exactly if the Grimm brother weren't doing some editing on their own behalf.

Re: Tolstoy’s Children’s Stories

#89
post #48

Important point many are missing: Folktales were not originally for children. They were told among adults after children had gone to sleep. But when folklorists (like the Grimm brothers) started collecting and publishing folk tales, it became a trend to publish sanitized edition for children. Read something like the Arabian Nights tales in an uncensored version - these were clearly not intended for children anymore t…

On the other hand I am not quite sure what these people told their kids and if one can apply the same standards. I think people used to be more cruel than they are now, for example public executions were drawing huge crowds. Also mortality was higher and people died at a younger age, especially child mortality used to be much higher. The concept and meaning of childhood was probably not exactly the same as today, chi…

[deleted]

Re: Tolstoy’s Children’s Stories

#90
post #48

Important point many are missing: Folktales were not originally for children. They were told among adults after children had gone to sleep. But when folklorists (like the Grimm brothers) started collecting and publishing folk tales, it became a trend to publish sanitized edition for children. Read something like the Arabian Nights tales in an uncensored version - these were clearly not intended for children anymore t…

> Folktales were not originally for children. I learned this the hard way. I purchased a beautifully made "Grimm's Complete Fairy Tales" to read to my then toddler. There are some particularly disturbing stories but I was surprised by how many were flat out nonsensical or silly (like The Story of a Boy Who Went Forth to Learn Fear [0]). It's fascinating to read these in their (translated) original form. Not your typi…

Even the 'sanitized' versions of them haven't aged well and are often pretty silly IMO. Maybe it's just because we tend to see them as morality plays these days and try to infer a lesson, while the originals seem to just have been local stories from various villages. Terrible people do well for themselves, lots of people die to no real gain or purpose, etc.
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