The crash of the global flower trade • Hacker News Board

Re: The crash of the global flower trade

#81

Post by kumarvvr » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 1:03 PM UTC

Mengkudulangsat wrote: post #3

Cut flower export sounds like climate travesty; they are not essential, they are fragile (requiring energy-intensive cold chain logistics and air-freight) and after all that effort... they have a shelf-life of a week. If there is an industry that should be strictly localized, it's this one.

Yup. Humans collectively are responsible for a lot of unnecessary greenhouse gases just because they want to have a pretty wedding or a party.

I can understand the argument about money, economy, livelihood, etc., but IMHO some things ought to be regulated to avoid situations where a bunch of roses carry a non trivial amount of carbon footprint.

Wouldn't it be possible to use locally grown flowers?

Re: The crash of the global flower trade

#82

Post by 9nGQluzmnq3M » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 1:04 PM UTC

Scapeghost wrote: post #50

easytiger wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they are not essential Welcome to civilisation. We do things than aren't survival focused.

It would be nice if you remembered civility before making all your passive-aggressive jabs in the comments here, like calling someone "incel" for, what, saying that destroying flowers might be wrong? ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22943627 ) What makes you so angry about arguing against destruction and waste?

Your comment here is far more uncivil and aggressive than the one you're replying to.

Re: The crash of the global flower trade

#83

Post by kumarvvr » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 1:06 PM UTC

op03 wrote: post #15

Mengkudulangsat wrote: post #3

Cut flower export sounds like climate travesty; they are not essential, they are fragile (requiring energy-intensive cold chain logistics and air-freight) and after all that effort... they have a shelf-life of a week. If there is an industry that should be strictly localized, it's this one.

I don't agree about not essential. If we go there, sooner or later, someone will show up and say Music is not essential, and why can't everyone dress like Zuck etc. But I do agree about local. I mean who doesn't want to walk by something like this everyday - https://scontent-yyz1-1.cdninstagram.com/v/t50.2886-16/93565...

To be fair, even though it rings of a dystopian oppressive society, there might be a day where, due to impact of climate change, a lot of pleasures that we take for granted will be ultra regulated.

I just hope society gradually moves to a state where everything but the most essential of essential stuff is produced and consumed.

Re: The crash of the global flower trade

#84

Post by kumarvvr » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 1:07 PM UTC

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #4

Mengkudulangsat wrote: post #3

Cut flower export sounds like climate travesty; they are not essential, they are fragile (requiring energy-intensive cold chain logistics and air-freight) and after all that effort... they have a shelf-life of a week. If there is an industry that should be strictly localized, it's this one.

The argument I regularly hear is that there would be more energy spent heating local greenhouses than flying the flowers.

Would it not be possible to build efficient greenhouses and save costs on heating systems?

Surely solar power could help.

Re: The crash of the global flower trade

#85

Post by kumarvvr » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 1:09 PM UTC

robocat wrote: post #47

Mengkudulangsat wrote: post #3

Cut flower export sounds like climate travesty; they are not essential, they are fragile (requiring energy-intensive cold chain logistics and air-freight) and after all that effort... they have a shelf-life of a week. If there is an industry that should be strictly localized, it's this one.

> they are not essential If we only live for the essentials, what do we live for?

That would be true if our carbon footprint is minimal, but that is not the case.

Until society self adjusts, to minimize the total carbon emissions per capita to a sustainable level, we might have to do with only essentials.

Re: The crash of the global flower trade

#86

Post by jhallenworld » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 1:11 PM UTC

mariushn wrote: post #68

Meanwhile in South Africa there are food issues... Why not plant vegetables instead of flowers? Also to note: workers get $70/mo, while all other middle-men involved get more.

I can tell you that in the US, decorative plants are so much higher a cash crop than food that it would not be worthwhile. Think of tobacco or marijuana vs. tomatoes...

On the other hand, some greenhouse businesses I know that do grow some food can be classified as essential businesses and stay open.

Actually there is an interesting optimization problem here. You are a greenhouse grower with a certain number of acres: which plants do you grow to maximize profits? You can grow the most profitable one, but then you don't have a very diverse stock, so you might not get as many buyers. On the other hand, many crops are expensive (in terms of seedling cost, greenhouse heating costs during the winter, opportunity costs because they take a lot time in the greenhouse).. You could sell planning software for this.

Re: The crash of the global flower trade

#87

Post by strgcmc » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 1:18 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #48

aaron695 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A carrot you eat and turn to literal shit. Flowers like you say lasts a week for multiple people. Also unlike kitschy stuff you buy and just sits there forgotten, you appreciate them, you have to somewhat care for them, they add value to life. To say they are "they are not essential" is saying life itself is not essential, just eat powder and sit in a room if this is the case. I feel like what you are saying is you d…

> A carrot you eat and turn to literal shit. It sustains their life and thus serves an important purpose. > Also unlike kitschy stuff you buy and just sits there forgotten, you appreciate them, you have to somewhat care for them, they add value to life. Kitschy stuff is another ecological disaster, separately from cut flowers. People who appreciate flowers generally buy potted ones and care for them; cut plants are m…

Surely folks on HN understand that, if it was economically feasible to compete on this, then locally sourced flower start-ups would've already become a thing?

Yes shipping and storage seem wasteful, but there are economies of scale involved when centralizing production to areas with the right climate, with desirable soil qualities, with expertise in planting such flowers, etc.

To help local flower growers win out, we would need to increase the cost of shipping/storage/etc. (maybe because we think they are not properly pricing in externalities?). Then we're back in the realm of tariffs and protectionism, which is its own can of worms; personally, I think we can complicate our understanding of free trade, and reasonably choose to impose artificial costs/penalties when it comes to climate protection or environmental goals (as opposed to, propping up certain industries just because they're better at lobbying).

Consider that, it is cheaper/more-efficient for fisherman/crabmen in Alaska or the PNW to send their catch to China for processing (filleting, canning, etc.), before shipping it back to the US for retail. I always found that to be fascinating, that supply chains are such that, it's more economical to outsource the processing of seafood, than for the fisherman to dump their catch to a local processing facility that then sends it out for retail.

Re: The crash of the global flower trade

#88

Post by bluGill » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 1:27 PM UTC

lonelappde wrote: post #73

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #35

As an aside, I've worked at Flora Holland, the company (a cooperative owned by a hundred and then some growers) that orchestrates a lot of the logistics; the clip in the article with the carts is a small part of their transit halls. They start in the early morning with the flowers and plants coming out of cold storage and auction them off early on; before midday, the halls are quiet and empty again, hundreds if not t…

Why does latency matter? In a dutch auction, latency shouldn't matter at all . You can take bids in advance up to a deadline, or you can do multiple rounds of bidding. Google ran their IPO as a Dutch auction, and latency didn't matter.

If there are 10 lots and eleven bidders the last bidder loses and has to go high. If you realize others are going high quick enough you can up your bid before someone else and thus not lose.

Even in a Dutch auction you are generally allowed to change your bid after you make it.

Re: The crash of the global flower trade

#89

Post by bluGill » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 1:31 PM UTC

kumarvvr wrote: post #80

mariushn wrote: post #68

Meanwhile in South Africa there are food issues... Why not plant vegetables instead of flowers? Also to note: workers get $70/mo, while all other middle-men involved get more.

I would assume that the market is self correcting. If there was shortage of food, it's price would be up and farmers would plant food crops.

There isn't a shortage of food. Farmers growing food are essential and doing what they did before. There are logistical issues. Restaurants order food differently than grocery stores so some supply chains are overfull while others are empty. Both are looking to the other for help but the setup makes it in efficient

Re: The crash of the global flower trade

#90

Post by rhplus » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 1:33 PM UTC

lonelappde wrote: post #73

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #35

As an aside, I've worked at Flora Holland, the company (a cooperative owned by a hundred and then some growers) that orchestrates a lot of the logistics; the clip in the article with the carts is a small part of their transit halls. They start in the early morning with the flowers and plants coming out of cold storage and auction them off early on; before midday, the halls are quiet and empty again, hundreds if not t…

Why does latency matter? In a dutch auction, latency shouldn't matter at all . You can take bids in advance up to a deadline, or you can do multiple rounds of bidding. Google ran their IPO as a Dutch auction, and latency didn't matter.

From Wikipedia, these markets use the “clock” variant, with the first bidder winning:

“Most commonly, it means an auction in which the auctioneer begins with a high asking price in the case of selling, and lowers it until some participant accepts the price, or it reaches a predetermined reserve price. This has also been called a clock auction or open-outcry descending-price auction. This type of auction shows the advantage of speed since a sale never requires more than one bid. It is strategically similar to a first-price sealed-bid auction.”

IPOs are more like the sealed-bid variant.