Earlier quoted context omitted.
A. You can design it in such a way so that sending a message to a non-user is indistinguishable from having a user see it and not reply/acknowledge it. B. You can exchange identifiers with people whom you want to communicate it just like with any other non-phone-based system: "Hey I'm @username on signal", "Cool, I'm @username2" - composes well with method A.
Solution A does not compose well with how Signal does encryption. In order to make this indistinguishable, Signal would basically have to man-in-the-middle all non-existent users. And if one of those users signed up for Signal it would have to stop man-in-the-middling them, causing all the people who were talking with their ghost to observe a key change. It's complicated at best, and sketchy at worst. Solution B ties…
230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question
81–90 of 178 posts
Re: 230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
Telegram does the same thing. In fact, so does Instagram, which I find most egregious, since it asks for your number for 2FA purposes then notifies anyone who has your number saved that you’ve joined. Every coach, recruiter, drug dealer or one night stand I’ve had in my life doesn’t need to know when I sign up to Instagram. Some of them might not have even had my real name until they got that notification. IMO this s…
That's almost worse than having no volume control in their interface, even for their desktop site.
Re: 230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
How would a messaging app work without contact discovery? You try a friend's number, and see if the message goes through? Well if that's what you want, then you can do this for all your phonebook numbers, and all the ones that go through are on Signal, and all the ones that error are not. Oops, you've reinvented contact discovery.
At least that requires the other person to have my contact saved, and actively try to reach me. I don't clear out my contact list frequently, so I don't want old contacts to be PROACTIVELY messaged about me joining Signal... if they are looking for me, fine.
Re: 230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
That example has absolutely nothing to do with Sec 230. Google’s ad design is all on Google. If it were illegal, Sec 230 wouldn’t protect them. And while Google might be protected against liability for Mapquest’s business practices, Mapquest isn’t. If their behavior is harmful and illegal, they are liable.
MapQuest did nothing wrong in this example. The problem is the fake sites that are taking the top spot in search results above the legitimate MapQuest link when you search Google for MapQuest, and Google refuses to delist them. And of course, Google lets people buy ads for other companies' trademarks, which is a whole different ball of issues. (MapQuest is a popular one for malicious sites to pretend to be because mo…
Re: 230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
> No, and they wouldn't be by any informed understanding of the law. You are misinformed about the history of 230. 230 was proposed exactly because the law was interpreted the way you're saying it wouldn't be. From Wikipedia below, added emphasis mine: > This concern was raised by legal challenges against CompuServe and Prodigy, early service providers at this time. CompuServe stated they would not attempt to regulat…
But in a world where we feel it was backwards that moderators were punished and unmoderated platforms weren't... Congress decided "let's just make everyone immune" was the right way to go? And again, I think the examples here are missing the same concept that Section 230 fails to recognize: Profit, as I discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22816016 It seems like the author of Section 230 failed to rec…
From that Wikipedia page, some of the current effects (again, emphasis mine):
> Craigslist ceased offering its "Personals" section within all US domains in response to the bill's passing, stating "Any tool or service can be misused. We can’t take such risk without jeopardizing all our other services." Furry personals website Pounced.org voluntarily shut down, citing increased liability under the bill, and the difficulty of monitoring all the listings on the site for a small organization.
> The effectiveness of the bill has come into question as it has purportedly endangered sex workers and has been ineffective in catching and stopping sex traffickers. The sex worker community has claimed the law doesn't directly address issues that contribute to sex trafficking, but instead has drastically limited the tools available for law enforcement to seek surviving victims of sex trade. Similar consequences of the law's enactment have been reported internationally.
> A number of policy changes enacted by the popular social networks Facebook and Tumblr (the latter having been well known for having liberal policies regarding adult content) to restrict the posting of sexual content on their respective platforms have also been cited as examples of proactive censorship in the wake of the law, and a wider pattern of increased targeted censorship towards LGBT communities.
----
Now, this kind of effect doesn't get as much mainstream attention because people are primed not to think of sex censorship as "real" censorship. But again, we have examples on the book of what happens to legitimate services (both large and small) when laws like this get passed. It's not fearmongering, it's history.
People have these assumptions that laws are going to be reasonably applied -- that's not a safe assumption to make if you pay attention to the history of these laws.
I'm largely unsympathetic to those arguments for the same reason that I'm unsympathetic to all of the lawmakers saying, "well this time we regulate encryption it will be different." We have a number of examples of how this can go wrong (and has gone wrong). If somebody wants to propose that it'll be different the next time we weaken 230 or add exceptions, then I think the onus is on them to provide some kind of compelling evidence as to why it's going to be different this time.
What makes you certain that the policies you propose won't have the same effect as FOSTA/SESTA?
----
As to why these laws primarily affect platforms that are already trying to moderate and not free-for-all hellholes, that's in part because of existing case law around the difference between a publisher and a distributor.
From Wikipedia's entry on Compuserve's case (once again, emphasis mine):
> The court held that "CompuServe has no more editorial control over such a publication [as Rumorville] than does a public library, book store, or newsstand, and it would be no more feasible for CompuServe to examine every publication it carries for potentially defamatory statements than it would be for any other distributor to do so."
Bills like SESTA/FOSTA have managed to pass without a lot of opposition because, again, people are primed to think that sex censorship isn't real censorship. But where more mainstream content is concerned, you should understand that proposing punishments for distributors is a pretty big change to existing libel/speech laws. Big enough that I don't even feel comfortable speculating on what the legal challenges or possible effects would be. That's a radical departure from how we currently think about speech in the US, not just on the Internet but in physical/print spaces as well.
Re: 230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
this is an interesting counter-counter-argument i've not seen before. does discussion of this sort of derivative behavior exist elsewhere? i.e. is there an established narrative of incumbents pushing against regulatory capture, or examples of this behavior?
It's just a general behavioral trend I (and plenty of others) have noticed in arguments against regulation coming from monopolies. When a big tech company claims a regulation it dislikes would hurt newer players from competing with it, you have to ask... why are they so opposed then? Is it out of the goodness of their hearts that large companies complain about regulation hurting small businesses? Or is it because the…
Re: 230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
Solution A does not compose well with how Signal does encryption. In order to make this indistinguishable, Signal would basically have to man-in-the-middle all non-existent users. And if one of those users signed up for Signal it would have to stop man-in-the-middling them, causing all the people who were talking with their ghost to observe a key change. It's complicated at best, and sketchy at worst. Solution B ties…
There would be no key change because there would be no initial key, signal facilitates contacts anyway the only difference is that the sides have no ability to control with whom it takes place. Messages to non-contacts will not be sent because there would be noone in your contacts to send them to, hence indistinguishable.
Re: 230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
OK, so please do tell me how to sue `sk8rboy2020` on the forum then?
Sue John Doe, and ask the court to issue a subpoena to the forum for identifying information, and then to the ISP, and once you have that, add the account holder as a defendant to the suit. It's not fast, and it's not easy, but such is life.
Re: 230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's just a general behavioral trend I (and plenty of others) have noticed in arguments against regulation coming from monopolies. When a big tech company claims a regulation it dislikes would hurt newer players from competing with it, you have to ask... why are they so opposed then? Is it out of the goodness of their hearts that large companies complain about regulation hurting small businesses? Or is it because the…
Why not look at who wrote the regulations?
Re: 230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
this is an interesting counter-counter-argument i've not seen before. does discussion of this sort of derivative behavior exist elsewhere? i.e. is there an established narrative of incumbents pushing against regulatory capture, or examples of this behavior?
It's just a general behavioral trend I (and plenty of others) have noticed in arguments against regulation coming from monopolies. When a big tech company claims a regulation it dislikes would hurt newer players from competing with it, you have to ask... why are they so opposed then? Is it out of the goodness of their hearts that large companies complain about regulation hurting small businesses? Or is it because the…