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Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

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Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#81

Post by soraminazuki »

VeninVidiaVicii wrote: post #50
soraminazuki wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm most certainly not opposed to saving lives. But we can't just mindlessly approve whatever "solutions" the government comes up with. Some "solutions" are bound to do more harm than good, and mass-surveillance is a prime example considering its potential for abuse. Just as people die from disease, people also die from tyrannical governments. Even if we assume that your government, however unlikely, would forever co…

Well, I love the positive attitude implying time will cure pandemics. Cure, in the sense that all things come to an end, the way all bleeding stops, yeah. I'm currently working as an infectious disease researcher for a state with a lot of political turmoil, and I'll have the be honest, my (profesional) opinion doesn't matter. No single recommendation we have made has had any bearing on the action of our state. These…

Just to be clear, I'm not dismissing the devastating effects this pandemic has brought. More lives will continue to be lost for the foreseeable future and it will likely have lasting economic implications. But if governments around the world go forward with mass-surveillance, it would be 9/11 all over again. As a direct consequence of 9/11, many innocent lives have been lost. But it's the policy decisions after the incident that has had an even more lasting and devastating effect on our democratic society. People need to keep these things in mind, especially in times of emergencies.

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#82

Post by malandrew »

altcognito wrote: post #65
kyuudou wrote: post #51

Dr. Michael J. Burry, M.D. (Vanderbilt) , setup a twitter account[1] just to address some of the negative consequences of overreacting to covid-19. He's not normally a social media type, to say the least. [1] https://twitter.com/michaeljburry

Yeah he’s pitching that California has already reached herd immunity. The premise is that covid-19 arrived in fall and that unlike everywhere else in the world, it arrived, spread without so much as being noticed at the ER.

If this actually happened, why did we not observe other incidents like what happened in the Live Care Center in Kirkland, Washington? 35 people died.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/21/us/coronavirus-nursing-ho...

This has ripped through like wildfire in highly vulnerable communities.

Also, would we not have observed a lot of medical staff becoming sick like they are now?

I just find it very hard to believe that this could have happened earlier without anyone noticing it given how it's greatly impacted pockets in very newsworthy ways.

Another example was that family in New Jersey where some members of the family died within hours of one another. 7 sick, 4 died.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/nyregion/new-jersey-famil...

Even California has vulnerable pockets in places that would have been canaries in the coal mine.

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#83

Post by amanaplanacanal »

iamben wrote: post #5
heurifk wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to be cool then you say "fuck the government, fuck the police". Its a big part of the reason, a lot of people want to show off by breaking rules for street cred.

I'm not sure it's that simple. I think most people breaking the rules just think it doesn't apply to them . Like they're healthy, they're low risk, they're good at following all the other rules ("we won't get close to anyone while we're out, we won't touch anything we shouldn't"). I assume it's a bit like washing your hands after using the toilet. Most people do. I don't think those that don't are saying fuck you to…

There are certainly a group of folks who are just trolls, and intentionally do the opposite of whatever their political opponents recommend. Look at the idiots who modify their trucks to "roll coal". Or people who intentionally burn more energy because they think climate change is BS.

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#84

Post by malandrew »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #58
jimktrains2 wrote: post #11

> At the ACLU, we have always recognized that, during a disease outbreak, individual rights must sometimes give way to the greater good. After all, when it comes to disease, we are not just individuals but also one big bio-mass. That is why people can sometimes be deprived of their liberty through quarantine, for example. And this is as it should be, provided — and this is a crucial and sometimes violated condition —…

Unfortunately the ACLU is slowly going down the path that SPLC and NRA (to pick one example from both sides of the isle) went down. They used to be a strong special interest advocate organization but they're becoming more and more corrupted by partisan politics. Likewise a statement of "we know it's not what our organization stands for but y'all need to get on board with what the government is telling you to do" is k…

WHO and the CDC also count as organizations that were more ideologically neutral that have lost their neutrality over time.

My understanding is that it was the CDC's partisan scope creep that put it in the crosshairs when the new administration came in. Instead of sticking strictly to infectious bacteria and viruses, they started quixotic quests to classify gun violence and obesity as epidemics. Those distractions allegedly cost them their edge in this pandemic.

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#85

Post by malandrew »

notyourday wrote: post #29
jimktrains2 wrote: post #11

> At the ACLU, we have always recognized that, during a disease outbreak, individual rights must sometimes give way to the greater good. After all, when it comes to disease, we are not just individuals but also one big bio-mass. That is why people can sometimes be deprived of their liberty through quarantine, for example. And this is as it should be, provided — and this is a crucial and sometimes violated condition —…

It is difficult to challenge the quarantine if the court functions are severely restricted.

This is a super valid observation that deserves more attention.

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#86

Post by iamben »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #83
iamben wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure it's that simple. I think most people breaking the rules just think it doesn't apply to them . Like they're healthy, they're low risk, they're good at following all the other rules ("we won't get close to anyone while we're out, we won't touch anything we shouldn't"). I assume it's a bit like washing your hands after using the toilet. Most people do. I don't think those that don't are saying fuck you to…

There are certainly a group of folks who are just trolls, and intentionally do the opposite of whatever their political opponents recommend. Look at the idiots who modify their trucks to "roll coal". Or people who intentionally burn more energy because they think climate change is BS.

I'm not saying those people don't exist - just that I suspect they are a significant minority when compared to the group I spoke of.

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#88

Post by notyourday »

lostmsu wrote: post #60
notyourday wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s too bad that people can’t follow simple requests. Governments are forced to choose between allowing idiot citizens to destroy society or to implement draconian policies. That was Bolshevick's motto. > The rest of us are being asked to just stay the fuck home for a few weeks. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/21/41-percent-of-americans-woul... 10M have not had a paycheck for 2 weeks.

Do you think they will get paychecks if they go out?

The government should embrace that so far people resorted to wandering aimlessly as the method of entertainment because normally entertainment requires money and the same government that wants people to stay home deprived them of ability to obtain money by working.

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#89

Post by m3chars »

tenebrisalietum wrote: post #80
m3chars wrote: post #56

In pop culture people turn into zombies by contact with a virus. Zombies don't think of themselves as idiots, probably because they lost their brains in the process, so actually they don't think at all, they just mumble "ARRRRHHHHG" "ORRRRRSSSSFFFF" and go after other peoples brains. Now this is a sad comment, using the deaths of other people to make a point, but since we're talking about facts I'll go ahead. -- http…

> "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety". We know the quote already. It's not doing any good to post it or repeat it. Simply saying this in response to complex problems is equivalent to saying "Thoughts and prayers" when someone is asking for help. It doesn't help and only makes you feel good. People are willing to give up a lot for conve…

While what you say might be true, you took literally the last two lines of a much longer post (that were used as final note regarding the topic in question) and in turn used that to say nothing relevant either, "hurr durr complex capitalism let-do scoobydoobydoo", but of course making me say "hurr durr liberty" in the process.

The points I made are quite clear:

a) A serious reading of the data we know shows a different picture of the fear inducing narrative being peddled b) Experts say the most irresponsible things - in quite enigmatic situations for someone with deep expertise in the subject being talked about c) Lockdown and home isolation are probably detrimental in terms of an individuals immune system - as in, going out is good d) There are other approaches that seem to have worked quite well e) You're going to die f) You shouldn't trade certain things for a fake sense of security even in the face of uncertainty

There are other questions that are complex, like millions dying of structural inequality every year and no world wide response to that (and on that point, no moral outrage by the civic chevaliers on that either), we could go on in false moralities all night long.

Although I'm not religious, I imagine saying "Thoughts and prayers" does help people who are in distress.

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#90

Post by SuoDuanDao »

seeTheAstroturf wrote: post #18
hurricanetc wrote: post #2

It’s too bad that people can’t follow simple requests. Governments are forced to choose between allowing idiot citizens to destroy society or to implement draconian policies. Medical professionals are being asked to come out of retirement. Nurses are reusing PPE for weeks. Medical students are graduating early to help. The rest of us are being asked to just stay the fuck home for a few weeks. And we just refuse to do…

Medical spends literally billions of dollars to regulate out competition. Then they can't handle demand. Blame them and corrupt politicians. Also pandemics mean either 70 percent of people will catch it, or we need a vaccine. Why even quarentine? Flatten the curve so we can die on ventilators instead?

I'm not surprised you're being downvoted. Of all the institutions that are on shaky ground these days, the medical ones are the ones who should most consider an overhaul as a result of this fiasco. Unfortunately, they seem too concerned with protecting their monopoly to accept any criticism or suggestions.
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