Live data from Hacker News

What's a virus, anyway? The bare-bones basics

scopeblog.stanford.edu

81–90 of 202 posts

Re: What's a virus, anyway? The bare-bones basics

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edit - I'll concede that analogies are absolutely fun haha. They might be useful to come up with when you yourself are trying to better understand something by drawing connections to other things you know and all. But I don't think they're ideal for being taught the subject. And again, for a layperson, analogies are totally fine if you just want a surface level understanding of "oh, mitochondrias are powerhouses of t…

Source code, but pretend there is no error correction and your logic circuit is noisy? (or the details of the error correction are murky)

And it also doesn't contain all of the source code and the error correction is when it tries to copy itself? I mean, just thinking of it as a type of biological source code that makes more of itself with mistakes and is messy is a decent enough analogy, and again I think most of these are fine just to be able to know as a layperson "oh right, DNA is that thing that has a lot of information about what the living thing is going to be like." You don't really need to know more than that day to day as long as other people do - I don't know how to fix my car but i know there are people out there that know how it works. If you are going to be more involved with it or want to know more about it for whatever reason though it's maybe worth diving into the bio 101 stuff then.

Re: What's a virus, anyway? The bare-bones basics

#82
post #25

Is there a a good read on how RNA and DNA work for a Computer Scientist? And more generally how biology, genetics, epigenetics, virus, etc work? Many vulgarization sources say that DNA is like the source code of life. But they mostly skim across the issue and go to conclusions like "this gene or set of genes are responsible for that outcome". But coming from a CS background that sounds a bit like non-sense. I feel li…

The reason why CS analogies don't work very well is that molecular biology is very context driven, and we often don't know what the context is.

For example, in eukaryotes, the same piece of DNA can can produce different amounts of different proteins (i.e. with different amino acid sequences and different post-translational modifications), depending on things like DNA methylation (there's a number of different types), genomic location, accessibility, transcript methylation, multiple mRNA isoforms - the list goes on. A combination of these and other still unknown factors produces the final product, which may vary within a cell, between cells in a tissue, and between tissues.

Things behave consistently and predictability, except when they don't. Makes the field interesting and frustrating.

Re: What's a virus, anyway? The bare-bones basics

#83
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO, biology is most easily looked at as a recipe for order, from whatever ingredients happen to be laying around. Essentially, everything is in the service of increasing order. And maintaining it. Polymerase creates more genetic code out of raw ingredients. Genetic code creates proteins. Proteins perform all kinds of functions by leveraging physics and chemistry. Membranes prevent all of this from being blown away…

To me, what blows most comparisons and analogies out of the water, is the insane complexity to it all. That genes can influence and interact with each other. So gene expression (= gene -> protein) can change gene expression, e.g. based on environmental factors or folding of DNA etc... Gene A is responsible for property A is way way way too simplified.

The sense I get is that its more like some unholy combination of brainfuck, vhdl, and game of life.

Re: What's a virus, anyway? The bare-bones basics

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can kill it in the sense that you stop it being a mutating replicator. That is pretty much the bare bones of life, an abstraction you can't get away from in defining life, but also one that encompasses things that aren't "life". It also applies to things like memes (both the original form from Dawkins and the internet form).

A virus is not a replicator. It is information and a transport system. The machinery of a living cell is the replicator. It seems pretty simple to me: viruses are not living. They are able to co-opt living systems into making more of themselves. A virus may gain life while it is inside of a cell, but why is that any different than the organic molecules which gain life when assembled into a cell? We don't say carbon i…

So they're a parasite. There are insects that can only reproduce by laying eggs inside of another insect. They don't physically carry their own. Does that mean they're not alive?

Re: What's a virus, anyway? The bare-bones basics

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if I understand the reference, if there is one.

It's a reference to Stanley Kubrick's film "2001, A Space Odyssey". After the astronaut began disassembling HAL, HAL became child-like.

Oh, of course it is. Should've caught it!

Re: What's a virus, anyway? The bare-bones basics

#87
post #5

> Is a virus a living thing? Maybe. I remember 20 year ago, at school, when the biology teacher was presenting this dilemma. Ever since, when I hear someone saying "doing this will kill the virus", it triggers my brain into this subject, since you can't kill something if it's not alive ;) Somewhat related, I also like the concept of the "Viruses of the Mind" [1], which makes an analogy between the spreading of a biol…

That is not dead which can eternal lie, And in strange eons even RNA may die!

Re: What's a virus, anyway? The bare-bones basics

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A virus is not a replicator. It is information and a transport system. The machinery of a living cell is the replicator. It seems pretty simple to me: viruses are not living. They are able to co-opt living systems into making more of themselves. A virus may gain life while it is inside of a cell, but why is that any different than the organic molecules which gain life when assembled into a cell? We don't say carbon i…

So they're a parasite. There are insects that can only reproduce by laying eggs inside of another insect. They don't physically carry their own. Does that mean they're not alive?

You're describing an organism. What about its cells?

Re: What's a virus, anyway? The bare-bones basics

#89
post #25

Is there a a good read on how RNA and DNA work for a Computer Scientist? And more generally how biology, genetics, epigenetics, virus, etc work? Many vulgarization sources say that DNA is like the source code of life. But they mostly skim across the issue and go to conclusions like "this gene or set of genes are responsible for that outcome". But coming from a CS background that sounds a bit like non-sense. I feel li…

If you must have analogies...

- DNA: code in your repo

- RNA: code in your working directory

- transcriptase: 'git fetch'

- ribosome: compiler

- proteins: executable object code (ribosomes are also proteins, mostly)

- epigenetics: build config options

- promoter site: `ifdef

First, imagine a system where every time you compile something, the object code is immediately launched in its own thread executing truly in parallel with all the others.

The overall behavior of the cell is the interaction of all these threads. A gene is a single block of code. They can do lots of things, including changing build options and enabling/disabling the generation of other blocks of code. We say a particular gene causes a particular effect, but really it's the aggregate interaction that does things. Most traits require the cooperation of many genes to express. If we associate a gene with a particular trait, it's usually because it is a critical component of that trait; necessary so if you break the gene the normal aggregate behavior goes away, but not sufficient - it still needs a lot of other working genes to have the right effect.

Now imagine that some of those threads run a constant cleanup process that kills running threads, delete your object code and delete files in your working directory (largely at random) while another set of threads are constantly fetching (transcriptase) and recompiling (ribosomes) code to launch new threads to keep the system working and your services up. During this process the relative number and type of running threads will change according to a combination of code and the environment.

Viruses are a tiny executable (protien coat) that copies some rogue code (RNA) into your working directory, so that constant recompilation will generate new instances that copy more code, etc.

Too many running virus instances will crash the system (kill the cell) by starving/corrupting normal processes. The random deletion and constant fetching from the repo slows the virus replication down however, and may stop it entirely.

_Retro_viruses have an additional piece:

- reverse transcriptase: 'git commit; git push'

which will copy the virus code back into your repo. Now the regular 'fetch' will copy the virus code back into your working directory.

Your immune system has processes which run around checking object hashes for threads. There's a whitelist for expected hashes (normal threads). If the same unexpected hash shows up too many times, it goes on a blacklist and you start generating antibodies- special threads that go around searching for a specific object hash and tagging that thread for deletion. If too many bad hashes are found in the same place, a white blood cell nukes the whole site from orbit.

Once you generate enough antibodies, the virus threads start getting killed before they can replicate and you're immune. If the virus mutates, the hash may not match anymore and you'll be vulnerable to the new strain. Things like the common cold and influenza mutate all the time, so you can very them over and over while chicken pox rarely mutates and youth can usually only get it once.

Vaccines are a bunch of copies of (usually inactive) threads with a particular hash, to encourage your immune system to put that hash on the blacklist.

Autoimmune diseases happen when valid code accidentally gets on the blacklist.

Cancer (a fork bomb) tends to evade the immune system because its code was already on the whitelist.

But... this is a super simplified version of how things work, and really only applies to mammals. Do not take these analogies too far.

Biology is fascinating, and definitely worth deeper study.

Re: What's a virus, anyway? The bare-bones basics

#90
post #25

Is there a a good read on how RNA and DNA work for a Computer Scientist? And more generally how biology, genetics, epigenetics, virus, etc work? Many vulgarization sources say that DNA is like the source code of life. But they mostly skim across the issue and go to conclusions like "this gene or set of genes are responsible for that outcome". But coming from a CS background that sounds a bit like non-sense. I feel li…

One of the best intros I've seen: an intro to how DNA works for hackers wanting to get started with genetic engineering

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJFqqxxtbRY

Gives you enough pointers to be able to start googling from there.

Post reply on HN