The Benefits of Being a Female Software Engineer • Hacker News Board

Re: The Benefits of Being a Female Software Engineer

#81

Post by JoeAltmaier » Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 2:32 PM UTC

cowpewter wrote: post #47

ajays wrote: post #5

She doesn't mention it, but another great thing about being an engineer is that engineers are quite egalitarian and the evaluation criteria is often very objective (speed of the code, complexity of the algorithm, etc.). As a result, women just have to be good at what they do, and there's hardly any discrimination. In other fields, often, for a woman to just be good is not enough; there is overt (or covert) discrimina…

I don't know. Engineers in general may be more impressed with skill than non-engineers, but as a woman in a technical field, I do feel constant pressure to not merely meet, but exceed, the abilities of my male peers in order to receive the same level of respect. I've felt it all my life, even as far back as middle and high school, competing in math competitions and our school's academic team, and being in the honors…

I'm quite sure women "feel constant pressure"; I'm just not sure its there. It may be a different emotional response to social pressure: guys are largely oblivious, while some women are acutely sensitive.

Re: The Benefits of Being a Female Software Engineer

#82

Post by jimbokun » Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 2:39 PM UTC

yuvadam wrote: post #20

Sorry, I can't hear about gender in engineering jobs anymore. The likelihood that you will see a blog post about the "benefits of being a male software engineer" is exactly the same as the likelihood to see a blog post about the "benefits of being a male social worker". We do not need to artificially try to bring in more engineers of a certain gender just because the numbers don't make sense. And we do not need more…

"benefits of being a male software engineer"

"benefits of being a male social worker"

I don't get your point. Aren't these exactly opposites in terms of prevailing stereotypes? So why would the odds of seeing those articles be exactly the same?

Re: The Benefits of Being a Female Software Engineer

#83

Post by jimbokun » Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 2:46 PM UTC

FeministHacker wrote: post #46

yuvadam wrote: post #20

Sorry, I can't hear about gender in engineering jobs anymore. The likelihood that you will see a blog post about the "benefits of being a male software engineer" is exactly the same as the likelihood to see a blog post about the "benefits of being a male social worker". We do not need to artificially try to bring in more engineers of a certain gender just because the numbers don't make sense. And we do not need more…

And this is precisely why we need still more posts. You know why we don't need a "benefits of being a male software engineer" post? Because every day is a "benefits of being a male software engineer" day for male software engineers. You should probably have a read of http://amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ . As a rule when it comes to this sort of material, if it makes you feel uncomfortable and defens…

"7. If I’m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low. (More).

8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are."

First, those are two pretty big caveats, especially considering how the vast majority of people in prisons are men. Second, I'm pretty sure males are far more likely to be the victims of violence than females. So while these individual claims may be true, it seems to ignore the bigger picture.

Maybe there are some legitimate points in this list, but for the most part I think this is an example of the "make so many accusations that none of your readers will have the time or energy to go through and refute all of them" school of writing.

Re: The Benefits of Being a Female Software Engineer

#84

Post by khafra » Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 2:53 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #71

FeministHacker wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The list is a generalisation across all fields, so discounting it based on how something might not be true in your field is a bit short-sighted. #1 is true still for many fields. Of course, the link you provided wasn't for the general tech sector - it was specific to universities, which have other aspects in play. Even within the general tech sector, there are plenty of reports of questionable hiring practices. I've…

Which fields is #1 true for? Regardless, I'll assume you are right. Points 1-3 are irrelevant for the conversation we are having here (about women in tech), so I'll keep reading. 4) is a matter of whether you personally adopt a collectivist viewpoint or not. If women disproportionately adopt collectivist viewpoints, why is that anyone's fault besides their own? 5) is probably on point. 6) may be true in general, but…

On 14, the failure mode is called "not carving reality at the joints." Because .00001% of men wield large amounts of political power, whereas even fewer women (at least, visibly) do so, political power is a male privilege.

There are certainly reference classes for "likely to wield political power" that change the likelihood ratio by far more than "male."

Re: The Benefits of Being a Female Software Engineer

#85

Post by sethg » Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 3:06 PM UTC

larrik wrote: post #76

sethg wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was an education major, to the extent that people commented on my gender, the comments were all positive—as a teacher I would be providing kids with a “male role model”, etc. (Of course, one of the reasons that I didn’t go on to a career in teaching is that the pay sucked. I believe that one of the reasons teachers’ pay sucks is that it’s a traditionally female occupation, and schools can recruit women who do…

" I believe that one of the reasons teachers’ pay sucks is that it’s a traditionally female occupation, and schools can recruit women who do not depend on their teaching salary for the majority of the family income." I never really considered that. I always assumed the pay sucked because tons of people who don't have actual career passions decide to just be a teacher instead. It's like never having to leave school an…

I think it’s a vicious cycle.

Most of the people who apply for the jobs are mediocre because the pay sucks, and the pay sucks because the school districts don’t consider their mediocre teachers to be worth more.

(There is also, of course, a minority who teach despite the sucky pay because they actually love doing it. My understanding is that those people would rather have more autonomy in the classroom than more money.)

Re: The Benefits of Being a Female Software Engineer

#86

Post by kaylarose » Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 3:12 PM UTC

pamelafox wrote: post #44

I actually wrote a post with similar sentiments a while back - "Being a Girl in CS Doesn't Suck": http://blog.pamelafox.org/2009/10/being-girl-in-cs-doesnt-su... As for the casual attire, I think it goes both ways. I'm totally into casual most of the times (to the point of wearing my head-to-toe footed pajamas to work), but then the days when I want to dress up or wear a mini-skirt or whatever, I feel like I'm standi…

>..when I want to dress up or wear a mini-skirt or whatever, I feel like I'm standing out a bit too much..

This is my experience too. Whenever I think about wearing something a bit fancy (that would be totally acceptable in another field) I feel a bit self conscious.

Re: The Benefits of Being a Female Software Engineer

#87

Post by jarin » Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 3:12 PM UTC

JanezStupar wrote: post #42

georgieporgie wrote: post #39

My (sexist?) experience: The few women I've worked alongside as a software engineer have been fantastic. Easy to get along with, able to focus on work tasks and still have a great lunchtime conversation, with no alpha-nerd pedantic B.S. The women I've worked for (three) have been universally terrible. Each in slightly different ways, but all had a strange, overcompensating quality to them. I'll just have to say it: b…

I confirm this experience and the anecdotal evidence I gathered is quite similar. Edit: Almost forgot - I also had a female boss I would work for in a beat. I must mention that she was more of a tomboy - but still what a woman: pragmatic, ambitious, decisive, tough but fair. All the general qualities one would expect from a man, but with added softness of female persuasion and communication skills.

It's funny how good female bosses are often described as "tomboyish". I'm starting to think "tomboy" is just a synonym for "assertive but likeable woman"

Re: The Benefits of Being a Female Software Engineer

#88

Post by binarysoul » Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 3:37 PM UTC

FeministHacker wrote: post #73

bryanlarsen wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I'm concerned this is a problem worse than the "no female engineers" problem. Little boys need role models and examples to grow into men. Even those with a good dad need them. And I bet that other teachers appreciate there being a man around, just as I have found that a workplace that includes women engineers is a much nicer place to work than one that doesn't.

It's not worse. It's not better. It's a different aspect of the same issue. We only really develop a proper understanding of gender around the age of 7, but influences before then set up the mindstates to come, and help to drill everyone (including parents and teachers) in appropriate gender roles. Kids see male doctors and female nurses. They have female teachers at school. When shopping for toys, the girls get pink…

Barbie is a computer engineer now.

My wife is in medical school, and there are more females in medical school now than males.

In order to change these kinds of things we need to move on from the past and look forward, and stop worrying about what color toys our children have.

Personally I think we need to overhaul what kind of education is valued. As in, encourage all kids to get STEM degrees, or alternatively become lawyers or doctors. Stop encouraging kids to go to university and major in english or philosophy or... any number of majors that lack hard math / science classes.

If we get kids to major in the right kinds of things in college, I think we can stem the current unemployment recent grads are feeling (nobody is looking to hire a liberal arts psychology major, except restaurants (waiters)).

Re: The Benefits of Being a Female Software Engineer

#89

Post by binarysoul » Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 3:40 PM UTC

bryanwb wrote: post #57

charlesju wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or worse, 90%+ of elementary school teachers are woman.

my wife works in public health, a field that seems to be 90% female. My wife's office is much more gender skewed than mine. If doctors didn't make so much $, I am convinced that women would make up the majority of doctors.

My wife is in medical school, and getting a masters in public health, at the same time. Meanwhile, many of her friends have dropped out of MBA programs, or stopped working full-time to be pregnant / get married / be a home-maker.

However, there are more females in medical school now than males, it's just a matter of time as the older generation retires.

Personally, I think there would be more doctors if it didn't cost $200k+ and 4 years to get a medical degree (compare the opportunity cost vs working as a software engineer for 4 years with only a bachelors).

Re: The Benefits of Being a Female Software Engineer

#90

Post by hackinthebochs » Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 3:40 PM UTC

sthatipamala wrote: post #23

Confusion wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to assume both you and Jean Hsu wouldn't be serious when they said that. In that case, if you were to say that, the angry horde would consist of women that didn't know you and were taking your words at face value, because guys have been known to actually feel that way. Those women would give Jean Hsu the benefit of the doubt, because there are few women known to have actually ever felt that way. However, wi…

I agree. I'll gladly mince my words to avoid being called a sexist. The issue here is that either Jean is being serious, in which case she's undermining workplace equality, or she's abusing the fact that she can facetiously say such things because she can get away with it. What is she trying to accomplish?

I don't get whats so outrageous that some people can say things that others can't. Context is everything, especially in language. I see this argument all the time when it comes to race and sex, and I just don't get it. It seems completely disingenuous to me. Confusion explained the difference well so I won't repeat it.

Let me ask you this, why is it so outrageous that its worth calling her out and making assumptions about her motivations just because she said something that you couldn't get away with?