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A detailed look at the router provided by my ISP

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Re: A detailed look at the router provided by my ISP

#81

Post by AdmiralAsshat »

I never thought to nmap my own router until reading this.

  PORT      STATE SERVICE
  53/tcp    open  domain
  80/tcp    open  http
  631/tcp   open  ipp
  5000/tcp  open  upnp
  7777/tcp  open  cbt
  20005/tcp open  btx
Now begins the three-hours-and-counting rabbit hole of trying to figure out what the hell is running on ports 7777 and 20005. Or why UPNP is apparently running, despite UPNP being explicitly disabled on the Netgear router's admin page.

Re: A detailed look at the router provided by my ISP

#82

Post by matheusmoreira »

josephmosby wrote: post #55
pdonis wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ISPs hate it because it it makes their lives a lot harder - in cable networks, they now have to deal with a zoo of endpoints on a shared medium vs. a small set of standardized devices. In other words, ISPs hate it because it forces them to actually do their jobs and be ISPs. The Internet itself is "a zoo of endpoints on a shared medium", and ISP stands for Internet Service Provider.

It's not the provision of Internet that's the problem, it's the customer service requests. e.g., AT&T could provide perfect service to the home endpoint, but the customer bought some aftermarket router from their cousin, who had configured it for Verizon. Customer calls AT&T to holler. Tier 1 support doesn't know what that particular router config GUI even looks like, so it gets bumped to T2 or T3. Ultimately to find…

> provide all the troubleshooting for every non-technical customer who just wants to watch Netflix but doesn't even know what a router is

People who don't even know what a router is don't buy their own equipment. Those who buy better routers don't require support for them, they call when there's a problem between the ISP and the router.

Re: A detailed look at the router provided by my ISP

#83

Post by pathseeker »

pdonis wrote: post #48
lima wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same in Germany! ISPs hate it because it it makes their lives a lot harder - in cable networks, they now have to deal with a zoo of endpoints on a shared medium vs. a small set of standardized devices. As a customer, I like it.

> ISPs hate it because it it makes their lives a lot harder - in cable networks, they now have to deal with a zoo of endpoints on a shared medium vs. a small set of standardized devices. In other words, ISPs hate it because it forces them to actually do their jobs and be ISPs. The Internet itself is "a zoo of endpoints on a shared medium", and ISP stands for Internet Service Provider.

>The Internet itself is "a zoo of endpoints on a shared medium",

No, the shared medium in this case is referring the last part of the cable network where everyone in a neighborhood is transmitting effectively onto the same cable.

All it takes is a single device with a broken configuration to spew crap onto the wrong channels, taking down the whole neighborhood. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOCSIS#Physical_layer

On the Internet it stops being a shared medium the minute it gets out of the cable network into fiber/ethernet switched+routed interconnections.

Re: A detailed look at the router provided by my ISP

#84

Post by matheusmoreira »

zeroflow wrote: post #5

...and that's why my ISPs router is running in modem mode with a non-ISP-controlled router from Ubiquiti behind it - which I may replace with a pfSense box in the future. I'm pretty happy that my cable ISP is allowing this mode so I don't have to double-NAT in my setup.

You're lucky your ISP's router offers you that option. My ISP's VDSL2 router would require "unlocking" in order to get bridge mode and it can't be easily replaced.

Re: A detailed look at the router provided by my ISP

#85

Post by pathseeker »

the8472 wrote: post #70
gbrown wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't you just daisy chain a second router via Ethernet and use it? Bonus points for VPN-ing all of your traffic.

Daisy-chaining routers is can severely degrade some services (gaming, p2p) due to NAT. Assuming the ISP-provided one supports PCP or UPnP-IGD you need a client on your own router that relays port forwarding configuration to the upstream router. This is possible but may need non-trival setup.

PCP that allows ingress connections without an established egress connection is rarely enabled. The same applies to UPnP because of the baddies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Control_Protocol#Security

Re: A detailed look at the router provided by my ISP

#86

Post by jmiserez »

pdonis wrote: post #73
josephmosby wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the provision of Internet that's the problem, it's the customer service requests. e.g., AT&T could provide perfect service to the home endpoint, but the customer bought some aftermarket router from their cousin, who had configured it for Verizon. Customer calls AT&T to holler. Tier 1 support doesn't know what that particular router config GUI even looks like, so it gets bumped to T2 or T3. Ultimately to find…

> ISPs job isn't just "provide the Internet," it's also "provide all the troubleshooting for every non-technical customer who just wants to watch Netflix but doesn't even know what a router is" No ISP that I'm aware of will provide troubleshooting for devices they don't own. They just say "sorry, not our device, not our problem". When I installed my own cable modem and router, Comcast was quite clear about that. And…

My ISP does, but they're the exception to the rule and cater to techies. Of course support questions for random devices need to be more specific than just "it doesn't work".

Re: A detailed look at the router provided by my ISP

#87

Post by pas »

lima wrote: post #40
LeonM wrote: post #30

In the Netherlands we now have a law where ISPs must allow your own choice of network equipment. This means they must give you the required information on how to connect your own device with their network. I have a fiber connection, which I connected directly to a Ubiquity router through a suitable SFP module. My ISP supplied the information on the fiber type and which VLAN ID's to setup for internet, TV and telephon…

Same in Germany! ISPs hate it because it it makes their lives a lot harder - in cable networks, they now have to deal with a zoo of endpoints on a shared medium vs. a small set of standardized devices. As a customer, I like it.

Can't they still just provide you with a "modem" and give you full IP access through that? What difference does it make if they put the modem inside our outside your premises? (Eg they put a switch/DSLAM/modem into a box on the street and then they give you a cable?)

Re: A detailed look at the router provided by my ISP

#88

Post by r1ch »

LeonM wrote: post #30

In the Netherlands we now have a law where ISPs must allow your own choice of network equipment. This means they must give you the required information on how to connect your own device with their network. I have a fiber connection, which I connected directly to a Ubiquity router through a suitable SFP module. My ISP supplied the information on the fiber type and which VLAN ID's to setup for internet, TV and telephon…

Do you know if this applies to cable modems too? Are they required to allow a 3rd party modem that they normally wouldn't provide to customers?

Re: A detailed look at the router provided by my ISP

#89

Post by mafuy »

Many people here pointed out a problem: Removing access for the ISP and/or device manufacturer means they cannot fix bugs remotely and automatically. This is bad in situations like when the Mirai malware hit.

How about this?: "You can use your own device and we provide all required information, but there will be no advanced support and you have to check for bugfixes yourself monthly."

... now that I wrote it, I see the answer: There is no way to enforce this, especially not reliably.

Re: A detailed look at the router provided by my ISP

#90

Post by pdonis »

jmiserez wrote: post #86
pdonis wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ISPs job isn't just "provide the Internet," it's also "provide all the troubleshooting for every non-technical customer who just wants to watch Netflix but doesn't even know what a router is" No ISP that I'm aware of will provide troubleshooting for devices they don't own. They just say "sorry, not our device, not our problem". When I installed my own cable modem and router, Comcast was quite clear about that. And…

My ISP does, but they're the exception to the rule and cater to techies. Of course support questions for random devices need to be more specific than just "it doesn't work".

> My ISP does

Out of curiosity, which ISP do you have?

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