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Bayer donates 3M chloroquine phosphate tablets for potential Covid-19 treatment

reuters.com

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Re: Bayer donates 3M chloroquine phosphate tablets for potential Covid-19 treatment

#81

Post by paulmd »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #42
hprotagonist wrote: post #27

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22628302 Derek lowe reviews the evidence here and has far more of a positive take on it than i'd expected. (as in , "not obvious nonsense!")

No, he doesn't. Derek has a favourable opinion of favipiravir and in the footnote he calls the French trial "messy". That's very polite, considering the shape of the data.

Boy, "messy" data when performing initial experimental administration of a drug, during an outbreak with no officially approved treatment, with limited testing capacity.which is piling up bodies faster than mortuaries can cremate them. How shameful.

People are nitpicking. Yes, "we need further studies", that's at the end of literally every research paper ever, but the longer you delay the more people die.

It's no different than signing up for an experimental cancer drug. There are no alternatives that are known to work. You take the best shot with the possibility that looks promising right now. The alternative is dying without trying.

It's kind of a weirdly US-centric position, both from science fetishism and the fact that we're the the country with the fewest deaths so far. Oh golly gee I guess we better wait 18 months for a double-blind clinical trial and FDA approval and a Nature article. Other countries have the bodies piling up and they are pushing ahead, because a chance is better than no chance. Just like with cancer.

Re: Bayer donates 3M chloroquine phosphate tablets for potential Covid-19 treatment

#82

Post by pbreit »

viggity wrote: post #20

Does anyone know how quickly the production of Chloroquine Phosphate and Hydroxychloroquine can be ramped up (say, to the tune of 500M people * 7g per "course" = 3.5 million kilograms? I tried finding out how much chloroquine is prescribed world wide per year, but couldn't find it. It may give us a clue into how much is already being used. I know that it isn't used except for pregnant women as a malaria treatement be…

I don't know. But there's more than enough available now.

https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/bayer-preps-u-s-donation...

Re: Bayer donates 3M chloroquine phosphate tablets for potential Covid-19 treatment

#83

Post by robocat »

SpikeDad wrote: post #68
peterburkimsher wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is anecdata, so beware. For a full story, email me. I have minor symptoms, and have been self-isolating since Wednesday (18) because many people around me were coughing on Monday (16) & Tuesday (17). The government here in NZ has not issued any lockdown instructions. Due to comments here on HN, I decided to buy 4x 1.5 litres of ordinary Schweppes tonic water. Panic buying had not yet struck (it has now, but most…

I hope the admins here remove this post immediately. This is dangerously false advice based on absolutely nothing but one ridiculous presumption. If people listen to you they're truly ill informed.

You are seriously overreacting.

He is suggesting drinking a few glasses of tonic water, saying why it is helping him, and prefixed a warning.

There is nothing dangerous in his suggestion, and it is obviously not given as a complete medical solution to the epidemic to use for your family.

Re: Bayer donates 3M chloroquine phosphate tablets for potential Covid-19 treatment

#84

Post by zwily »

pbreit wrote: post #78
roenxi wrote: post #19

I wonder if there is a point where literally everyone just gets a dose of chloroquine. My understanding is it stops the virus replicating and so is almost a preventative rather than a treatment.

It may not work as a prophylactic (preventative measure) and in fact, as an immunosuppressant, may actually make things worse. For example, it enhances influenza: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25715935

Someone else in this thread said that chloroquine experiments started because Chinese doctors noticed that none of the covid-19 patients had lupus (and basically everyone there with lupus takes chloroquine). If that's true, maybe it could be prophylactic. /IANAD

Re: Bayer donates 3M chloroquine phosphate tablets for potential Covid-19 treatment

#85

Post by HarryHirsch »

paulmd wrote: post #81
HarryHirsch wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, he doesn't. Derek has a favourable opinion of favipiravir and in the footnote he calls the French trial "messy". That's very polite, considering the shape of the data.

Boy, "messy" data when performing initial experimental administration of a drug, during an outbreak with no officially approved treatment, with limited testing capacity.which is piling up bodies faster than mortuaries can cremate them. How shameful. People are nitpicking. Yes, "we need further studies", that's at the end of literally every research paper ever, but the longer you delay the more people die. It's no dif…

It's not that you didn't have a supply of patients for clinical trials. You have to make sure that your proposed therapy works, else you waste money and lives. If your wonder drug is so great you'd notice immediately in the data and would cut the trial short. What is concerning that the Chinese didn't notice a great effect, else they would have told the rest of the world.

Re: Bayer donates 3M chloroquine phosphate tablets for potential Covid-19 treatment

#86

Post by WalterSear »

pbreit wrote: post #79
WalterSear wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's way too nasty a drug IME. The side effects can be really unpleasant, not even considering the possible long term effects. But it would make sense for medical staff and other people in high risk occupations.

It's taken regularly by millions. Are the side effects really that nasty?

I can only speak from my own experience, taking it prophylactically while traveling overseas in a malaria prone area. I had to discontinue it after 5 days because it was keeping me from my work: profound, irrational depression, constant cold sweats, painful tinnitus, nausea and disabling fatigue. Perhaps these side effects would have gone away over the long term.

Autoimmune diseases, can be way, way worse, particularly arthropathies, since, if unchecked, they cause permanent damage. Also IME, as a rule disease modifying drugs have really nasty side effects. You take them anyway, because you have no better alternative :(

Re: Bayer donates 3M chloroquine phosphate tablets for potential Covid-19 treatment

#87

Post by jshevek »

blhack wrote: post #52
prostheticvamp wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medical doctor and statistician weighing in just to say: I agree fully with what you wrote. No miracles observed.

I don't mean and disrespect to you as a physician, but there appear to be many experts who disagree with you to the point of acting out their disagreement at scale. Chloroquine has become a standard part of treatment for this disease in several countries, and its continued use seems to imply its efficacy.

>there appear to be many experts who disagree with you to the point of acting out their disagreement at scale. Chloroquine has become a standard part of treatment for this disease in several countries, and its continued use seems to imply its efficacy.

The fact that experts agree that this drug should be used doesn't mean they agree that it is miraculous. And this certainly doesn't suggest they disagree with the parent MD/statistician.

Re: Bayer donates 3M chloroquine phosphate tablets for potential Covid-19 treatment

#88

Post by dogma1138 »

wazoox wrote: post #74
pbreit wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WARNING: the above is almost certainly wrong. Citation should be provided. The preponderance of the evidence suggests that it's a well-understood drug that has been around for decades, used by 10s of millions for not only malaria but also arthritis. In fact it is safe enough that it is available over the counter in some countries. [1] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroquine

From your own link, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroquine#Overdose : "Chloroquine is very dangerous in overdose." Please read what you're posting, at least.

Hydroxychloroquine has lower toxicity and while it has side effects including sight loss these tend to only occur with long use (years to decades) and are mostly accumulative.

The current HCQ protocol for COVID-19 is a 600mg dose daily (within about the safe limits for a grown adult, however can be a bit high) for 10 days.

This isn’t a recommendation of any sorts however the side effects are likely to be mild and reversible for this type of usage.

Re: Bayer donates 3M chloroquine phosphate tablets for potential Covid-19 treatment

#89

Post by jshevek »

batmansmk wrote: post #37
cycrutchfield wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They're miraculous. Where are you seeing that? Because what I see is a very non-rigorous, non-randomized study. Also, what about this part: >A total of 26 patients received hydroxychloroquine and 16 were control patients. Six hydroxychloroquine-treated patients were lost in follow-up during the survey because of early cessation of treatment. Reasons are as follows: three patients were transferred to intensive care u…

Exactly! Reading the study, I don't see any hard evidence. Sounds like the next Forsythia.

This one study is weak, agreed. However, some form of chloroquine+iodine has been used successfully in South Korea. I don't agree with the "miracle" hyperbole, but there is reason to be hopeful.

Re: Bayer donates 3M chloroquine phosphate tablets for potential Covid-19 treatment

#90

Post by gjs278 »

wazoox wrote: post #74
pbreit wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WARNING: the above is almost certainly wrong. Citation should be provided. The preponderance of the evidence suggests that it's a well-understood drug that has been around for decades, used by 10s of millions for not only malaria but also arthritis. In fact it is safe enough that it is available over the counter in some countries. [1] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroquine

From your own link, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroquine#Overdose : "Chloroquine is very dangerous in overdose." Please read what you're posting, at least.

water is dangerous if overdosed
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