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Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

nytimes.com

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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#81

Post by thawaway1837 »

saberience wrote: post #20
NicolasGorden wrote: post #13

I completely agree with the message that people-helping people is super effective. But I'd like to point out that one of the core tenants of AA is to surrender to a higher power. I'm not advocating in favor of religion. But rather highlighting that maybe people who accept 'surrender' of their own will are more likely to get better. There's something to the concept that seems powerful. Anecdotally, I've known someone…

I think there's a major understanding of this part of AA. This DOES NOT mean acknowledging that you believe there is a god. The concept of a "higher power" can mean anything you want it to mean. You can imagine your higher power is Gandalf, Sauron, elves at the bottom of the garden, or even some aspect of your "best self." You could imagine it to be the spirits of your ancestors or even something like the energy of t…

I think this depends on your specific AA. In bigger cities this is largely indeed the case. However, in smaller towns it’s not as true.

That being said, these smaller towns already pressure people to believe in a higher power in most social settings, so it’s less a case of AA imposing it and more society, which is kind of to be expected in a people driven effort.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#82

Post by thawaway1837 »

reggieband wrote: post #56
beefok wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please describe a 'militant' atheist perspective unironically. :) When you contrast it to any other type of 'militant', there is typically violence involved.. However, personally, I think the closest thing I could believe in is a "best self". Not that anyone chooses their beliefs, but the rest would be pretty hard to digest for any good reasons. Honestly, I just think giving up on the idea that you can do this by you…

> Please describe a 'militant' atheist perspective unironically. :) I think of militant as unyielding and confrontational. This isn't some pejorative assigned to others, it is a term forwarded and embraced by proponents of that ideology. For an unironic perspective I suggest this New Yorker article "All Scientists Should be Militant Atheists" by Lawrence Krauss [1]. 1. https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/all-sci…

The first usage of militant atheist out there is in quotes.

Which clearly indicates that the author doesn’t actually believe that’s an appropriate term, but is rather saying that if what is described by some as militant atheism (an adjective the author doesn’t agree with, hence the quotes) then all scientists should be atheistic enough to be described as militant by those people.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#83

Post by speeder »

beefok wrote: post #43
saberience wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a major understanding of this part of AA. This DOES NOT mean acknowledging that you believe there is a god. The concept of a "higher power" can mean anything you want it to mean. You can imagine your higher power is Gandalf, Sauron, elves at the bottom of the garden, or even some aspect of your "best self." You could imagine it to be the spirits of your ancestors or even something like the energy of t…

Please describe a 'militant' atheist perspective unironically. :) When you contrast it to any other type of 'militant', there is typically violence involved.. However, personally, I think the closest thing I could believe in is a "best self". Not that anyone chooses their beliefs, but the rest would be pretty hard to digest for any good reasons. Honestly, I just think giving up on the idea that you can do this by you…

Well... I did met violent militant atheists, so they DO exist.

Thankfully that was many, many years ago, but stuff that happened to me:

1. Atheist stealing my bible then proceeding to play "soccer" using it as ball.

2. And Atheist + Vegan being physically threatening because I was eating meat and was christian.

3. I got hit on the back of my head with a chain, in middle of a university class, completely out of the blue, some time after an atheist classmate found out I was christian (he waited until I was busy reading something to attack me).

4. Had a group of atheists constantly bully me (for example stealing stuff, damaging my property, graffiti, etc...)

All of that happened near "highly educated" people, for example inside school, academia, white-collar workplaces...

After I started to interact with "normal" people (the average person of my country, that doesn't have college education, have blue collar work, or work in service industry directly in contact with people, etc...) this all stopped.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#84

Post by AndrewKemendo »

NicolasGorden wrote: post #13

I completely agree with the message that people-helping people is super effective. But I'd like to point out that one of the core tenants of AA is to surrender to a higher power. I'm not advocating in favor of religion. But rather highlighting that maybe people who accept 'surrender' of their own will are more likely to get better. There's something to the concept that seems powerful. Anecdotally, I've known someone…

Explaining away the majority of life's existential questions (surrender to higher power) and then surrounding yourself with a community that supports you (weekly groups), is a pretty tried and true method for happiness.

That assumes happiness/contentment/stability is the goal.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#85

Post by blablabla123 »

NicolasGorden wrote: post #13

I completely agree with the message that people-helping people is super effective. But I'd like to point out that one of the core tenants of AA is to surrender to a higher power. I'm not advocating in favor of religion. But rather highlighting that maybe people who accept 'surrender' of their own will are more likely to get better. There's something to the concept that seems powerful. Anecdotally, I've known someone…

Societies have been driven by religion and spirituality for ages. Of course we have now been enlightened by science buts it's probably one of the challenges of culture to come up with an effective replacement. One that not only not contradicts scientific commonsense but that is also not considered as mumbo jumbo.

There's definitely a void left by the demise of religion. Also this leaves the question open whether that is not the reason have actually turned alcoholics ;)

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#86

Post by komali2 »

speeder wrote: post #83
beefok wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please describe a 'militant' atheist perspective unironically. :) When you contrast it to any other type of 'militant', there is typically violence involved.. However, personally, I think the closest thing I could believe in is a "best self". Not that anyone chooses their beliefs, but the rest would be pretty hard to digest for any good reasons. Honestly, I just think giving up on the idea that you can do this by you…

Well... I did met violent militant atheists, so they DO exist. Thankfully that was many, many years ago, but stuff that happened to me: 1. Atheist stealing my bible then proceeding to play "soccer" using it as ball. 2. And Atheist + Vegan being physically threatening because I was eating meat and was christian. 3. I got hit on the back of my head with a chain, in middle of a university class, completely out of the bl…

If you wanna trade stories I can tell you about growing up atheist in South Carolina, but I don't think it's a productive or effective use of this forum.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#87

Post by taurath »

saberience wrote: post #20
NicolasGorden wrote: post #13

I completely agree with the message that people-helping people is super effective. But I'd like to point out that one of the core tenants of AA is to surrender to a higher power. I'm not advocating in favor of religion. But rather highlighting that maybe people who accept 'surrender' of their own will are more likely to get better. There's something to the concept that seems powerful. Anecdotally, I've known someone…

I think there's a major understanding of this part of AA. This DOES NOT mean acknowledging that you believe there is a god. The concept of a "higher power" can mean anything you want it to mean. You can imagine your higher power is Gandalf, Sauron, elves at the bottom of the garden, or even some aspect of your "best self." You could imagine it to be the spirits of your ancestors or even something like the energy of t…

> Don't get tied up in militant atheist perspectives.

Not that you're saying its not, but I'd grasp onto this to add a point that its valid and useful to debate whether that surrendering is the best path.

In my mind, what you're being asked to do is abstract and make a virtual externalization of your ego. The benefit is you can get some of the benefits of ego-depletion or ego-loss, but the side effect is that it risks further use of that mechanism to explain or stop caring about things that are more easily under one's control. This can lead to a cycle of ignorance - if every event that happens is "God's Plan", then why not give into nihilism? Its ends up being the answer to every question - if you don't understand something, then its not due to lack of effort, it must be ungodly.

Note that plenty of religious people don't fall into this trap. They don't have a problem expanding their knowledge, and they leave the dieties in the periphery of understanding. Growing up amongst some extreme fundamentalist people though and seeing the downsides of dealing with all problems through faith alone, I am really lax to recommend the surrendering that AA espouses as a universal/sole truth.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#88

Post by komali2 »

eeZah7Ux wrote: post #26
saberience wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a major understanding of this part of AA. This DOES NOT mean acknowledging that you believe there is a god. The concept of a "higher power" can mean anything you want it to mean. You can imagine your higher power is Gandalf, Sauron, elves at the bottom of the garden, or even some aspect of your "best self." You could imagine it to be the spirits of your ancestors or even something like the energy of t…

> You can imagine your higher power is Gandalf, Sauron, elves at the bottom of the garden That's quite cheeky. Telling people to believe in a "higher power" simply translates into the gods in the mainstream religion in the society they live in.

I'm with you - whenever a non-demoninational event goes down, or when someone says "take the higher power of your choice, could be Gandalf, it doesn't matter!" I can't help roll my eyes. It's an ignorant thing to say. Assuming a religion is "invalid" or not a "religion" if it doesn't have a godhead at all. Many don't, named or otherwise. "Higher Power." And lord forbid your chosen godhead is someone else's religion fallman. When I was growing up in SC and we'd do these school classroom prayers (public school, unconstitutional, but who's keeping score?), me being a cringy little 13 year old atheist would say shit like "hail satan" and raise ire of pretty much the entire school. So no, they don't really mean "your higher power of choice," they mean "your given godhead that I can convince myself is actually mine just under a different name."

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#89

Post by [deleted] »

NicolasGorden wrote: post #13

I completely agree with the message that people-helping people is super effective. But I'd like to point out that one of the core tenants of AA is to surrender to a higher power. I'm not advocating in favor of religion. But rather highlighting that maybe people who accept 'surrender' of their own will are more likely to get better. There's something to the concept that seems powerful. Anecdotally, I've known someone…

[deleted]

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#90

Post by openfuture »

towaway wrote: post #24

If you're one of those for whom AA didn't work I would encourage you to look at the The Sinclair Method. It has changed many lives for the better (including mine). https://www.reddit.com/r/Alcoholism_Medication/ https://cthreefoundation.org/

I googled it, seems to be you're supposed to take some drug that makes you stop drinking.
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