Live data from Hacker News

Officials: Dozens at WA nursing facility show possible coronavirus symptoms

kiro7.com

81–90 of 112 posts

Re: Officials: Dozens at WA nursing facility show possible coronavirus symptoms

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve heard symptoms relate less with age and more with viral load. The sicker other people are and the more frequently you come in contact with them, the more lethal it becomes. I’m checking reddit r/COVID19, which is a science based discussion forum with cited academic papers and flaired scientists. It started turning into a prepper forum but I think the mods are shutting that down pretty quickly. I go there for my…

>> I’ve heard symptoms relate less with age and more with viral load. The sicker other people are and the more frequently you come in contact with them, the more lethal it becomes. Are you sure that's accurate? I'm not disputing that as viral load increases, so do symptoms, and ability to infect others. However, I'm finding it hard to model a scenario in which a virus is already replicating in one's system and extern…

Here's the reddit post I looked at: https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/f8lofv/why_are_so_...

Here's the full text of the post:

"""text Recently there have been several tragic deaths of young doctors in Wuhan from covid19, including the 29-year-old Dr. Xia Sisi, the 29-year-old Dr. Peng Yin Hua, the 42-year-old Dr. Huang Wenjun, and of course the 34-year-old Dr. Li Wenliang. This is at some odds with general population data showing that deaths of covid19 tend to be highly concentrated in the elderly. It could be a statistical anomaly, but it does seem like death rates may be higher in young doctors than would be expected in the population.

As an explanation, many of the most upvoted comments on these posts suggest that their immune systems might be suppressed due to overwork, poor sleep, and stress. To me, this seems to be an extremely unlikely explanation for many reasons, including the fact that doctors don't seem to die at relatively higher rates of other infectious illnesses such as influenza.

However, some people have mentioned higher viral load as a possibility, which seemed more likely. I did some research and I found this 2005 study on the role of viral load in SARS (which is, of course, very similar to covid19): https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/11/12/pdfs/04-0949.pdf

The study looked at an outbreak of sars in a particular housing area in Hong Kong. They found that people who had closer contact with the index patient had a higher nasopharyngeal viral load on admission as measured by RT-PCR. Crucially, they also found that people in this area were also the most likely to die. Some quotes:

"The median nasopharyngeal viral load in E block patients (5.09 log10 copies/mL) was much higher than in non-E block patients (0 log10 copies/mL) on admission (p"Severity of illness did not differ between block E patients and non-E block patients when they were first seen at the hospital, despite higher viral load in block E patients. However, the death rate was higher in block E. We have previously demonstrated that patients with high initial and peak viral loads in nasopharyngeal samples were more likely to show a less favorable disease course and lower survival rate (8,18). Patients living in E7 who had highest nasopharyngeal viral loads explains why their death rate was higher than for those living in other units. The dilution effect resulted in a decreased viral load as the disease spread to other units and in a lower death rate."

This data corroborates the viral load theory. It's not perfect evidence, but the theory also makes basic physiologic sense. A higher viral load on initial infection means that the virus will be able to do more damage and suppress the host's immune system further (lymphopenia) before the host can mount an immune response against the virus.

Hospital workers are likely to be exposed to especially high viral loads of covid19. People who are hospitalized with covid19 infections are likely to cough more and require close contact for procedures such as IV placement and intubation. It is hard to know for sure, but healthcare transmission risk may have been especially high in the early stages of the epidemic in Wuhan, when people were not as aware of the high mortality rates of this disease.

If viral load upon initial infection correlates with disease severity, this may also help to explain why some local clusters seem to have more severe disease, such as the family who all died of the disease. For some reason, people in these clusters may have been exposed to an especially high viral load. Ideally, we could measure the viral load of infected people with RT-PCR to test this, although it's hard enough to get basic yes/no tests for covid19 at this point.

The viral load theory is not rock solid. It may not explain a large percentage of the variance in disease severity - certainly age seems to be a larger factor. But to me, it is clearly the leading theory why a disproportionate number of young doctors without apparent pre-existing health problems have died of covid19 in Wuhan.

Healthcare workers putting themselves at risk to care for the sick during this pandemic are heroes. It is an urgent priority to have sufficient PPE available to our healthcare staff. We also need to have adequate space available to allow for the adequate distancing of staff and possibly infected patients. The viral load theory suggests that PPE and distancing are not only important for preventing healthcare workers from getting the illness but also decreasing the likelihood that they will die of the illness if they are infected. """

Re: Officials: Dozens at WA nursing facility show possible coronavirus symptoms

#82

I'm starting to get the impression that most countries are dealing with this outbreak professionally. Except for Iran and the US. Ironic.

Mine (Italy) did not react professionally at all, in particular in the crucial first days, where there was a huge confusion and contrasts between local and central government (a paralyzed government who was mostly concerned about a majority party leaving or not leaving until up to this crisis).

Communication also was handled pretty poorly on all levels (central government, local government, and media). Strong measures (likely necessary) were not communicated properly ("do not panic" followed by restrictive measures), and the news are basically happy to provide sensationalist headlines ("coronavirus nightmare", "war bulletin", etc.). Lastly, the incompetent PM (he is: he's only there because he was "honest") blaming the hospital where the crisis started. This might be true (personally I think not, it is a failure in the chain of command as far as I can see), but you don't come out with these statements. What example are you giving to the country, the citizens, and everywhere in the world? That you don't even know how things are run in the country you are serving as part of the executive branch.

Also the experts (I do not use quotes, they are, or at least should be) providing explanations for the general public often coming up with contradictory statements (because of the various unknowns surrounding this virus and its behavior outside China). And the general public, which is unequipped to understand, gets even more confused.

This also led to the mass hysteria from the last weekend, with people raiding pharmacies and supermarkets. And the press from abroad (in Spain and at least in Colombia, from what I've seen) sensationalized that even more, up to the point that an acquaintance of mine (Colombian) got a worried phone call from her father because he was worried she'd starve.

"Professional"? Not by any means.

Re: Officials: Dozens at WA nursing facility show possible coronavirus symptoms

#83
post #59
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bellevue, WA here; I had a very bad case of the flu in early Feb (worst I can remember) and it took 3+ weeks to fully recover. Many cow-orkers were also affected (some meetings with 30+ people were down to a handful of people . . . not a bad thing under the circumstances). Our "patient zero" was a dev who came into work for a day with a cough. If you're sick, please stay home.

There’s no way you can confirm it was the dev. Almost Everyone has had the flu this year basically regardless of flu shot status. I had a flu shot and got influenza A. It took a week to recover but the fever only lasted half a day. Tamiflu helped. My case corrresponded with a peak in cases in my state.

Most of my past flu "experiences" have been like that. Started of as a cold, two days of low fever, 8 hours of high fever (that waas the sucky part), and two to three days for everything to stabilize.

Re: Officials: Dozens at WA nursing facility show possible coronavirus symptoms

#84
post #39
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure this is the reason. Not being honest about it is a problem.

Why didn’t they buy working kits from other countries though? They had weeks to do that.

And even worse, I believe they banned buying foreign test kits, so local authorities, hospitals, etc. had no ability to take matters into their own hands.

Re: Officials: Dozens at WA nursing facility show possible coronavirus symptoms

#85

How do you differentiate influenza from covid-19? These folks probably just have the flu. I live in WA state and I had the worst case of the flu I can remember about 3 weeks ago. Did I have covid-19? No way to really know.

I saw on the news, they are now using CAT scans to detect as a first pass. Apparently the damage done to the lungs has a distinct popcorn like outline, easily seen on the scans.

Wouldn't this catch only those with the most severe sympthoms (the dreaded 20% often quoted, of which a part of that is fatal) and not the "dangerous" (because they can infect others more easily) people with mild to no sympthoms?

Re: Officials: Dozens at WA nursing facility show possible coronavirus symptoms

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but these folks were not tested correct?

Yes, but the high number suggests that it may not be the flu, since immunity to flu lasts a few years, so people are unlikely to fall sick in high numbers like this, and also are in the same facility as people tested positive.

  immunity to flu lasts a few years
Immunity to that specific strain.

Re: Officials: Dozens at WA nursing facility show possible coronavirus symptoms

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there's less risk because the US government quarantined it so well. Can you elaborate on that? Up to now everything shows that US government did not quarantine it very well, the chances for early testing and isolation of early cases were missed because of too restricted testing, and now we're getting severe patients who did not have any travel history, so they've been infected somewhere on US soil a week or two ago…

The total number of cases in each country indicates otherwise. Currently compared to every other country on Earth, we have quarantined it the best. Even if you assume there are some undetected cases in the US (which is likely), it's still not even close. It WILL spread across America, it's just a matter of time. You are speculating that the CDC will not be able to handle it. Take a step back and calm down. Maybe eval…

>> Take a step back and calm down. Maybe evaluate where you get your news and why they are trying to fear monger.

Press conferences held by US leadership seem to indicate that they're not well prepared for an actual crisis, but are prepared to play politics with one. This does not bode well.

Re: Officials: Dozens at WA nursing facility show possible coronavirus symptoms

#88
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an active poster there. It's worth noting this is only a hypothesis. Yes, in general, across viral illnesses, people have a worse course of disease with high viral load. Whether that's a primary cause of differences in prognosis-- who knows. It would help explain why medical practitioners seem to do so badly.

Thank you very much for the clarification and for posting there! Yes, it is but one explanation and one possible reason out of many. I think others there have mentioned stress (I believe I read one 27 y/o doctor sadly dropped dead after working 10 days straight) and contexts such as existing immune system health (I've read a good number of stories of outbreaks in hospitals in addition to this nursing home story).

Yup. I'm not really involved in medicine (I've done a couple of things on the periphery), but one thing I've learned from reading lots of papers is just because something seems to make perfect sense doesn't mean it's what is actually happening.

Another factor beyond just viral load is viral diversity. People that are exposed to high viral loads also tend to be exposed to a genetically diverse population of viruses with a range of virulence and there's more likely to be virus that is particularly adapted to grow in that person and virulent. Also, there is almost certainly genetic variance in 2019-nCoV virulence and lethality, and the nastier strains are probably more concentrated in hospitals.

Re: Officials: Dozens at WA nursing facility show possible coronavirus symptoms

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You assert that numbers mean a lot. You also state that appropriate testing is being done. What number of tests need to be administered to attain an appropriately sized population for statistical analysis? The answer to this is a LOT MORE than the ~3500 tests that have been conducted in the US over the last month. We already have people testing positive who have not travelled overseas and have not come into contact w…

> So the quarantine in the US has failed, and we have no idea how badly. No one ever suggested it was never going to spread in America. The quarantine was to TRY to prevent it from getting here, but you can only do so much. Once it is here we will treat it. There are plenty procedures in place since 9/11 to handle these things properly. The longer we held the quarantine the more time we had to prepare. We've done rea…

>> Stop fear mongering.

You might have the best of intentions, but you're not really helping anyone.

The US appears to be mirroring China's missteps quite well, and we all know how things turned out there. Unfounded optimism is as dangerous as fearmongering.

Re: Officials: Dozens at WA nursing facility show possible coronavirus symptoms

#90
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a misquotation. The original source says “additional positive cases are expected”: https://www.kingcounty.gov/depts/health/news/2020/February/2...

That's a pretty fucked up misquotation

KIRO has fixed the typo in the article.
Post reply on HN