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The Two Middle Classes

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Re: The Two Middle Classes

#81

Post by philwelch »

notduncansmith wrote: post #59
philwelch wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s interesting the way you equate fossil fuels with scarcity and renewable energy with abundance, when renewables are still a tiny minority of the world energy supply. In reality, it’s fossil fuels that allow for energy abundance, while the movement to transition to renewables is accompanied by energy austerity: less driving, less air travel, less meat consumption.

Our fossil-fuel-backed energy “abundance” is the same as the mortgage-backed financial “abundance” we had in 2007 and the international-kidnapping-backed labor “abundance” of pre-Civil-War America. It’s a loan the oligarchy takes out with no intent to pay it back. The alternative is not “austerity”, just living within one’s means and not externalizing one’s own cost of living.

That’s a fair argument to make, it’s just completely different from the original argument you were making.

Re: The Two Middle Classes

#82

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

martythemaniak wrote: post #8

It's an interesting and somewhat useful take on things, but like a dog wearing pants, things just don't seem to fit very well. First, I do think it's ridiculous that he takes it as a given that Oligarchs favour climate policy. Yes, I can see how someone can point to Musk and .... I dunno Al Gore? and try to make the point, but for every Musk-a-like, there are many dozens of rich people very deeply vested in the fossi…

This is a cut-and-paste patchwork of stock right-wing talking points - written by someone who is part of what he calls the clerisy, and who conveniently ignores the fact that the people who "hand down policy" are not university professors and academics, but a huge network of privately funded PR companies, social influencers, think tanks, and carefully on-message media outlets.

In short, it's a propaganda piece for that operation - designed to set up fake anti-intellectual resentment against a group with very little political influence.

The reality is that far from setting climate policy, social policy, or economic policy, left-wing academics and scientists have to fight tooth and nail to create any policy push back at all against the distorting influence of this organised and toxic lie machine.

Corporate and political power is under no serious threat from this academic "clerisy". Suggesting they're somehow complicit with the interests of oppressive oligarchs, especially about climate change, is so far from the truth it's practically crank talk, and is also - conveniently - a stock variation on the old trope that climate scientists are only in it for the money, while brave and noble fossil fuel corporations are there to help protect innocent citizens from their corrupting influence.

Re: The Two Middle Classes

#84

Post by walshemj »

xenihn wrote: post #80
walshemj wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um middle class university jobs are badly paid compared to professionals working at say a FANG

They're secure though.

Not really there are lots and lots of academics going from short term contract to short term contract.

Re: The Two Middle Classes

#85

Post by walshemj »

tic_tac wrote: post #31
walshemj wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the yellow vests are overwhelmingly lower class - and in France you might even say peasantry. Weather or not some rich people are using these people by manipulating them is another question

That hasn't been my impression. While they may not be business owners, I think many of the yellow vests could be considered working middle class.

Not by the normal definitions

Re: The Two Middle Classes

#86

Post by woodandsteel »

roenxi wrote: post #16
martythemaniak wrote: post #8

It's an interesting and somewhat useful take on things, but like a dog wearing pants, things just don't seem to fit very well. First, I do think it's ridiculous that he takes it as a given that Oligarchs favour climate policy. Yes, I can see how someone can point to Musk and .... I dunno Al Gore? and try to make the point, but for every Musk-a-like, there are many dozens of rich people very deeply vested in the fossi…

> First, I do think it's ridiculous that he takes it as a given that Oligarchs favour climate policy. > I don't think any serious survey of the financial interests of the global superrich will support this view. There is a subtlety here - one possible outcome is oligarchs cynically favouring climate policy while simultaneously having deep vested interests in fossil fuels. The article isn't saying that the oligarchs w…

The oil oligarchs strongly opposed renewable energy because it would simply replace oil, gas and coal consumption. New governmental regulations that forbid their companies from selling their products are of no use to them. If you don't believe me, do a google search on: fossil fuels stranded assets.

Re: The Two Middle Classes

#87

Post by woodandsteel »

woodandsteel wrote: post #86
roenxi wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, I do think it's ridiculous that he takes it as a given that Oligarchs favour climate policy. > I don't think any serious survey of the financial interests of the global superrich will support this view. There is a subtlety here - one possible outcome is oligarchs cynically favouring climate policy while simultaneously having deep vested interests in fossil fuels. The article isn't saying that the oligarchs w…

The oil oligarchs strongly opposed renewable energy because it would simply replace oil, gas and coal consumption. New governmental regulations that forbid their companies from selling their products are of no use to them. If you don't believe me, do a google search on: fossil fuels stranded assets.

And one more point. There are a lot of big companies in the renewable energy field, but they are for the most part a whole different set of companies than the fossil fuel ones. And the fossil fuel companies know this, and that they are going to get replaced, so they have been denying global climate change for decades.

Re: The Two Middle Classes

#88

Post by kirghiz »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #82
martythemaniak wrote: post #8

It's an interesting and somewhat useful take on things, but like a dog wearing pants, things just don't seem to fit very well. First, I do think it's ridiculous that he takes it as a given that Oligarchs favour climate policy. Yes, I can see how someone can point to Musk and .... I dunno Al Gore? and try to make the point, but for every Musk-a-like, there are many dozens of rich people very deeply vested in the fossi…

This is a cut-and-paste patchwork of stock right-wing talking points - written by someone who is part of what he calls the clerisy, and who conveniently ignores the fact that the people who "hand down policy" are not university professors and academics, but a huge network of privately funded PR companies, social influencers, think tanks, and carefully on-message media outlets. In short, it's a propaganda piece for th…

Pish. It's mostly based on an article by Thomas Piketty, which is linked.

Piketty may be many things, but right wing is not one of them.

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