Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#81

Post by kmlx » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:14 PM UTC

an interesting story from japan: they have 1 year parental leave for men and women. but just 8% of men actually took it compared with 82% for women. the reason is the same across the planet: they would be left behind at work.

compare this with the former communist country of Romania, today an EU country: 126 days for women, 5 days for men. income during those times is payed for by the state (80%).

societal discrimination against women is deep, and the law can certainly help, but it's only part of the problem. in some places a huge overhaul of society needs to happen. my fear is that the forces that want to keep society as-is are usually much stronger than the ones that want change.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#82

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:14 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #12

But will they force Dads to take it? As a Dad who had two kids, I would much rather pay for childcare than take paternity leave. Would someone like me be held back artificially to promote equality? EDIT: Not a freak, don't care for the infant stage. Happy to dote when they start to turn into people.

[deleted]

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#83

Post by mensetmanusman » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:15 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #12

But will they force Dads to take it? As a Dad who had two kids, I would much rather pay for childcare than take paternity leave. Would someone like me be held back artificially to promote equality? EDIT: Not a freak, don't care for the infant stage. Happy to dote when they start to turn into people.

In the US, I have seen cases of both parents taking company leave, and still putting their kids in childcare so that they can do house projects. Defeats the purpose... culture takes time to change

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#84

Post by toasterlovin » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:15 PM UTC

wincy wrote: post #40

sudoaza wrote: post #2

Germany has this and is awesome. 14 months paid leave to distribute among the two parents.

I’m curious what what happen if someone wanted to have ten kids and abused this system, and the mother didn’t work. At a gut I feel like I’d be less likely to have kids, not more, if I felt like I was burdening other people by accepting benefits like this. I have no worries as an American having as many kids as I want because I make a good salary, can afford them, and won’t take more than a weeks, maybe two weeks tim…

Having both parents be economically unproductive for an extended period of time is clearly not a tenable arrangement in the long term. But the long term, in this case, is measured in tens of generations. In the short term, most developed societies are more than wealthy enough to shoulder such a burden. People would still probably get looked at weird for having tons of kids, but that already happens anyway.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#85

Post by socialdemocrat » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:15 PM UTC

sgt wrote: post #3

Seems a bit bizarre seeing that mothers in most cases will need to spend more time with their babies. After all, there are certain things like breastfeeding that only a mother can do.

Would make more sense to point out how ridiculously short maternity leave is in many places. Like the US isn't it a couple of weeks or something and not even paid?

I noticed when visiting the US that breastfeeding was not very normal. Like they don't even teach it in a standard hospital.

Finnish moms are getting longer maternity leave than most countries in the world with this system. If other countries can manage with their short maternity leaves, I am sure Finnish mothers can manage too.

I mean I agree with you in principle that moms are needed for longer time than dads, but too often such questions are raised in an a disingenuous fashion to push back against gender equality.

What we do in Norway is that moms get some extra time at work for things like pumping. I believe the first year you get something like 1-2 hours at work for breast feeding.

As a dad I was feeding my child milk which had been pumped earlier.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#86

Post by willis936 » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:16 PM UTC

Many comments laud this as a step towards gender equality, which is a noble goal. However, I do wonder about the unforeseen consequences. All mammals (afaik) are raised by mothers. Humans are mammals. Humans do a good job of making changes to our nature, and for the most part those changes have resulted in better lives. However we still have things like nuclear families. Children aren't taken away from parents and raised by communities instead. So we don't throw everything out from nature, because some of it works well and reliably. Is there any science to suggest that there are no adverse effects on an infant from having an absent mother?

To move back up: I'm saying there might be a good reason mothers should be given maternal leave and that there might not be as good of a reason for men to be given paternal leave. Gender equality doesn't mean both genders are the same.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#87

Post by kraigie » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:16 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #12

But will they force Dads to take it? As a Dad who had two kids, I would much rather pay for childcare than take paternity leave. Would someone like me be held back artificially to promote equality? EDIT: Not a freak, don't care for the infant stage. Happy to dote when they start to turn into people.

This means other women will have the same resource options you do.

Why shouldn't their husbands stay at home?

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#88

Post by dudul » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:17 PM UTC

wincy wrote: post #40

sudoaza wrote: post #2

Germany has this and is awesome. 14 months paid leave to distribute among the two parents.

I’m curious what what happen if someone wanted to have ten kids and abused this system, and the mother didn’t work. At a gut I feel like I’d be less likely to have kids, not more, if I felt like I was burdening other people by accepting benefits like this. I have no worries as an American having as many kids as I want because I make a good salary, can afford them, and won’t take more than a weeks, maybe two weeks tim…

The goal is probably more to reach equal pay/opportunity as opposed to any population growth agenda.

When I was in the EU, I knew a woman who had 4 kids, each ~1/1.5 year appart. So she would have a kid, be out 6 month, go back to work for 6 month, have another kid, rinse and repeat 4 times :) .

It was a total nightmare for her employer because they couldn't let her go, and they couldn't hire anyone permanently to do her job. They could only use short term contractors who would stay 6 months (barely enough time to get up to speed) and then leave. I don't know if she was "abusing" the system, I mean, it was her right by law to do that, but after popping the 4th one she left work to be a stay at home mom. I don't know how well her employer took it :)

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#89

Post by pavlov » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:17 PM UTC

nisuni wrote: post #54

Thanks but no thanks. When I’ll have a baby I‘ll have to breastfeed, after having carried him for nine months, and having him exit through my private parts. Give me my extended, non trasferrable maternal leave! Edit: since some people are misunderstanding my point: extending the paternal leave costs money. I would rather prefer those money being spent on more maternal leave.

Nobody is taking that away. This is about giving the same amount of non-transferrable leave to both mothers and fathers.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#90

Post by trumpeta » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:19 PM UTC

wutwutwutwut wrote: post #7

sgt wrote: post #3

Seems a bit bizarre seeing that mothers in most cases will need to spend more time with their babies. After all, there are certain things like breastfeeding that only a mother can do.

Hmm, a quick search tells me that roughly half of all babies are breastfed after 6 months in the US. Seems acceptable to cater for potential needs of half the population (assuming numbers are the same obviously). I was home with my kid when he turned 1 until he was 1.5 using this system in Sweden. Being a guy, I didn't breastfeed him. Kid still appear functional.

> Kid still appear functional.

Yeah you don't want an object oriented kid.