Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand • Hacker News Board

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#81

Post by war1025 » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 10:57 PM UTC

SkyBelow wrote: post #61

yesenadam wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I find mention of Maslow's pyramid in these sorts of discussions interesting because people seem to forget a few specific needs ranked on it So why don't you remind us specifically which needs you're talking about? Then it becomes "that specific need".. Strange you didn't mention what it is. Why?

Why? Why does someone allude to a point without saying it. Perhaps because even mentioning it brings with it a certain level of controversy and thus speaking about it indirectly allows more focus on the topic at hand. Also, while there is one in particular, there are other needs listed that are often not given the full consideration (though the others rank higher of the hierarchy, and thus if the discussion is only o…

Your comments are vague to the point of being useless.

I even went to the bother of trying to look up what it is you'd be referencing, and came up blank.

I think you are severely overestimating the likelihood that anyone knows what you are talking about.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#82

Post by ska » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 10:58 PM UTC

ailideex wrote: post #77

ska wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your are assuming at least two things (there are surely more) about people who are struggling to raise kids 1) They have always been struggling, a didn't have a reasonable plan originally, and/or 2) They didn't take reasonable precautions to avoid pregnancy but still end up pregnant, and believe their best option was to raise the child Both of these assumptions are clearly false in general although I don't know enoug…

I think we completely rule out cases where people were in a good financial position and could provide for children and cases where people were using birth control child poverty will remain virtually unchanged. https://www.businessinsider.com/parents-determine-child-succ... > The researchers further suggest that the "fraction of children living in single-parent households is the strongest correlation of upward income…

It's a complicated issue. I don't know enough to have a strong opinion on it, but I do know enough to know that a lot of the research is contentious.

The black/white thinking espoused above, though: I doubt it leads to real insight or improvements.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#83

Post by SamReidHughes » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 10:58 PM UTC

BEEdwards wrote: post #79

SamReidHughes wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost of food has been doing a great job of declining all on its own.

All on it's own, you know not counting the government subsidies designed for that purpose.

That's right. Because farms and delivery infrastructure use less and less people and/or pay them less.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#84

Post by albreth » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 11:13 PM UTC

bpt3 wrote: post #59

albreth wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly, I’ve seen much worse, and the mods here don’t do anything about it.

It's no longer visible? I'm not sure what else you want the mods to do about it.

I’ve observed openly white supremacist language being used on this website with a weak chiding for being “political” being the only response.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#85

Post by altacc » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 11:17 PM UTC

wang_li wrote: post #46

altacc wrote: post #3

In discussions about low income families I often see somebody comment along the lines of blaming the parents for making bad choices and choosing to have children they couldn't afford/care for/want. This is used as a reason not to provide any social support to those families as they see it as rewarding bad behaviour. But these children didn't make those choices and they now exist in their circumstances through no faul…

You cannot rationally hold the belief that people can be allowed to have as many children anytime they want and that all children will be provided for regardless of the ability of their individual parents to provide for them. Such parents have shown they have no limiting factor, so the end result is that all children will be poor as you divert greater and greater resources from parents who act in more responsible way…

Whether or not you believe in helping others is a personal choice. Most societies across the globe and throughout history have recognised the need for community & solidarity in order to survive & thrive.

> Such parents have shown they have no limiting factor...

You make it sound like there’s an infinite loop of childbirth which will eventually use up every last dollar in the world, but that’s not what happens in reality when people have enough money to keep having children. There are also potential options to combat this, through incentives, support, education, etc...

Your point about it being worse in other countries is common enough. My reply tends to be that for every problem in the world we don’t find the worse example out of all 7.6 billion of us and start there. We start where we can and then try to keep going as much as we can.

> I'm not going to lower the standard of living of my own family

Not everything is a zero sum game. Currently the US right seems to frame a lot of centrist/left policies as significantly detrimental to the lifestyle and income of the average person. There is plenty of economic resource out there which we can utilise before we make any significant impact on a typical taxpayer’s lifestyle. Even then it would be minimal compared to the overall improvements to the country.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#86

Post by anchpop » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 11:18 PM UTC

war1025 wrote: post #81

SkyBelow wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Why does someone allude to a point without saying it. Perhaps because even mentioning it brings with it a certain level of controversy and thus speaking about it indirectly allows more focus on the topic at hand. Also, while there is one in particular, there are other needs listed that are often not given the full consideration (though the others rank higher of the hierarchy, and thus if the discussion is only o…

Your comments are vague to the point of being useless. I even went to the bother of trying to look up what it is you'd be referencing, and came up blank. I think you are severely overestimating the likelihood that anyone knows what you are talking about.

I'm fairly sure they're talking about sex or intimacy, which Maslow had at the base of his hierarchy of needs

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#87

Post by altacc » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 11:21 PM UTC

ska wrote: post #53

ailideex wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In discussions about low income families I often see somebody comment along the lines of blaming the parents for making bad choices and choosing to have children they couldn't afford/care for/want. So just to be clear on some points before I get accused of holding positions I do not hold. I am all for helping children who were let down by their parents. I don't think they should be condemned. I also grew up very po…

Either people have agency ... Or things are more nuanced than this view allows. What if people in general have some agency, but not always enough to counteract the larger scale actions that affect them?

This is a good point. Many aspects of our lives are under the control of others & our socio-economic system. Recessions our previously comfortable families below the breadline, where they are then judged harshly for their life choices. Many families are only a crisis or two away from homelessness, without full agency to rescue themselves.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#88

Post by bpt3 » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 11:27 PM UTC

albreth wrote: post #84

bpt3 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's no longer visible? I'm not sure what else you want the mods to do about it.

I’ve observed openly white supremacist language being used on this website with a weak chiding for being “political” being the only response.

Okay, I suspect it gets downvoted to oblivion on posts with any meaningful activity, which is how the system is supposed to work.

I'm confident I don't personally agree with whatever statement was made at the top of this thread, but I also don't really care if it's censored/removed or not, so I might not be the best advocate here.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#89

Post by nessus42 » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 11:32 PM UTC

Ididntdothis wrote: post #72

nessus42 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was responding to the claim that subsidies to grow the right kind of food, rather than corn, etc., might help. I mentioned the issues of housing and community, etc., that are required to actually obtain and cook food. I don't see how subsidies to farmers to grow healthier foods are going to solve the problems that you mention. I.e., I'm not denying that people living in poverty don't end up malnourished, but that w…

I was more thinking about reducing existing subsidies for unhealthy foods like sugar and corn syrup. That stuff is cheap partially because of subsidies so it gets added to everything. When I go shopping for example apples are quite expensive compared to a bag of frozen French fries. Lettuce is also very expensive. We could change this with smarter subsidies.

Fresh fruit can surely be expensive. I doubt that frozen fruit is that bad. Maybe more than frozen french fries, but if you can cook frozen french fries, I should think that you can also cook beans.

Regarding corn syrup being put into everything, this seems to be a much more general health issue than for the poor alone. Obesity in the US is an epidemic that is much more widespread than amongst just the poor.

I agree that this means that surely we are doing something very wrong in this country!

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#90

Post by allovernow » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 11:46 PM UTC

ailideex wrote: post #74

allovernow wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>When it comes to this issue, you need to pick a lane and stay in it This is a good example where black and white thinking is dangerous. Some people have more control over their circumstances than others. That includes parents providing (or not) for their children. You don't need to be an apologist for bad parenting to acknowledge that human circumstances are due to some combination of choices, intrinsic nature, and…

> Some people have more control over their circumstances than others. That includes parents providing (or not) for their children. I don't think the majority of the poverty problem comes from otherwise well to do parents falling on hard luck. At least in South Africa and I would think most of the rest of Africa this is not the case. If people just made sure to be in a position where they have the capability to provid…

>I don't think the majority of the poverty problem comes from otherwise well to do parents falling on hard luck

I don't disagree - competent people, who have learned successful strategies, are unlikely to be reduced to permanent poverty except in extreme cases.

However, for those born into poverty, growing up surrounded by ignorance and lack of stimulation does make it exceedingly difficult to learn necessary life strategies to begin the slow, often times multigenerational climb out of poverty. First and foremost, what no one is willing to admit, combating poverty, at least in first world nations, really comes down to combating culture. And because a large proportion of certain (not all) minorities live within this culture, the idea of changing their way of life, even if you think it's ostensibly for the better, is understandably a sensitive subject.

But the way we dance around it isn't doing anyone any favors.