Live data from Hacker News

Medications that change who we are

bbc.com

81–90 of 289 posts

Re: Medications that change who we are

#81

>"It turns out many ordinary medications don’t just affect our bodies – they affect our brains." I feel like perpetuating this mindset is the ultimate sin of modern psychiatry and the entire industry of psychiatric pharmaceuticals - your brain is your body. It's not some special thing that sits apart from it. It is an integral part of the whole, no different than your kidneys or liver. People think they can take an a…

> It's not some special thing that sits apart from it. It is an integral part of the whole, no different than your kidneys or liver.

Except it is. The brain is a part of your body and the two are tightly integrated. Yet the brain is also not simply another organ. If you lose half of your liver, your personality might change due to the trauma, but you will still be you. If you lose a kidney, you’ll live on as if little happened (assuming modern medicine stops you from dying of infection). If you lose half your brain, you’re probably dead, and if not, you’ll be drastically impaired the rest of your life. You’ll also likely experience drastic personality changes.

The brain is part of the body but it is also special. To my knowledge it’s the only organ with a dedicated blood barrier. It’s also the only organ that modern medicine can’t keep “you” alive without. If your body is on life support but you are “brain dead”, then “you” are gone. Your heart can be replaced with a pump. Your kidneys can be replaced with dialysis. Your stomach can be replaced by a feeding tube. Yes, all of these are pretty poor alternatives but they affect quality of life. They don’t end life. If modern medicine could replace your brain with a computer, no one would consider this a lifesaving intervention.

No one says they’ve lost a parent to kidney failure while the parent is still alive. Many people have said they’ve lost a parent to dementia while the parent is still alive.

Re: Medications that change who we are

#82

>"It turns out many ordinary medications don’t just affect our bodies – they affect our brains." I feel like perpetuating this mindset is the ultimate sin of modern psychiatry and the entire industry of psychiatric pharmaceuticals - your brain is your body. It's not some special thing that sits apart from it. It is an integral part of the whole, no different than your kidneys or liver. People think they can take an a…

“I used to think that the brain was the most important part of the body. Then i realized who was telling me that...”

I used to think the brain was the most important part of the body. Then my arsehole clenched shut for a week...

Re: Medications that change who we are

#83
post #45

Definitely 100% true, first hand experience here. I had mild medication prescribed for regulating blood pressure. Supposedly without psychological side effects. I found out a year later that it dramatically affected my personality. More or less like in the article, but in the opposite way. The frightening thing is, I didn't know !!! I found out a year later when temporarily stopping the medication, my kids started to…

Doctors are not always researchers. The mind of a good researcher is very curious. A good practitioner has to rely on heuristics for troubleshooting due to the high dimensionality of the decision space they deal with.

Usually doctors still operate by the book. All symptoms and deductions have to make sense in the "context" of the "book," if the book doesn't mention it, the doctor doesn't proceed any further.

For example, I slept on my bed with a heater blasting onto my face. Next day I developed sudden onset dry eye. Literally from eyes that had zero issues to dry eye. I think the heater was the causative agent, but the medical literature is blank on this, so the doctor is clueless as well. In fact the doctor literally ignores the fact that I had a heater blasting my eyes all night. I came in to the eye doctor and he assumed that my dry eye developed over a long time when in actually I "caught" it three days ago.

One perspective of this is that the patient is biased and assigning causative attributes to something that only happens to correlate with an outcome. Therefore all patient descriptions must be cut through and ignored if it's not relevant to the problem. It's largely true but I think doctors bias themselves towards this predisposition a little too much and dismiss many things that are actually important.

Either way though, if it's not in "the book" then treatment for it doesn't exist in any scientific form yet, so the doctor can't help you anyway.

Re: Medications that change who we are

#84

The world is in the midst of a crisis of over-medication, with the US alone buying up 49,000 tonnes of paracetamol every year – equivalent to about 298 paracetamol tablets per person Shocking, I knew it was bad but this is madness.

I wonder how much of that paracetemol is actually consumed? Maybe a lot of it just sits on a shelf and expires?

That was my first thought. My local Costco sells 1000 tablets of Paracetamol for $8.49.

I've bought several thousand pills of OTC pain relievers in the past year to keep a bottle in my car, my office, at home, and so on. I've only taken maybe 10 pills over the course of a year.

I do agree that the country is over-medicating in general, though. The focus on customer satisfaction and patient review scores for doctors has created bad incentives for doctors to "do something" by prescribing pills instead of pushing for natural interventions (diet changes, exercise, reducing screen time, going to bed earlier)

Re: Medications that change who we are

#85

I have long wondered about this. In the Asian world, traditional Systems of Medicine focus on "holistic" treatment and the general public often calls Western Medicine, "Allopathy with side-effects". I had intuitively felt that these medicines must have an overall effect on behaviour which may always not be obvious to the observer unless the difference between the before and after were stark and noticeable. We really…

There might be side effects to modern medicine, but there's no reason to assume that traditional beliefs re: health and medicine are more correct; The arguments behind them are usually epistemologically unsound, and they are often out-and-out superstitions.

Re: Medications that change who we are

#86
post #51

Let's also consider the other direction -- how fresh vegetables and fruit, plus whole grains, beans, nuts, seeds, and herbs improve mood, behavior, resilience. Throw in some vigorous exercise, and for most people, drugs can't do better, without the drugs' side effects and cost. For many people, switching from a standard American diet to largely those ingredients would register as changing who they are. I just finishe…

> Throw in some vigorous exercise, and for most people, drugs can't do better, without the drugs' side effects and cost.

This is a dangerous generalization. I fully agree that exercise is more beneficial than most people realize for general health, but it's not good to treat exercise vs. drugs as a false dichotomy. They both have their place.

The key is to work with doctors who aren't afraid to recommend exercise and behavior changes when necessary. It's also important to signal to your doctors that you're willing to make lifestyle changes before jumping to drugs, if possible.

In my experience, doctors would always prefer to prescribe exercise, diet, and lifestyle changes before medications, but they're hesitant to do so in this world of patient satisfaction scores and demanding patients who self-diagnose their medication needs before they schedule the appointment.

Re: Medications that change who we are

#87
post #35

The world is in the midst of a crisis of over-medication, with the US alone buying up 49,000 tonnes of paracetamol every year – equivalent to about 298 paracetamol tablets per person Shocking, I knew it was bad but this is madness.

This Common Painkiller Does Some Interesting Things To Your Mind - VICE https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/gymgx7/tylenol-can-have-s...

Very good article! Thanks for the link.

Some quotes;

There’s some imaging research that suggests that social and physical pain could have overlapping biological mechanisms, he tells me, so the parts of the brain that Tylenol affects to make your headache go away are the same parts that are involved in these other feelings as well; the same brain networks that allow us to feel and respond to physical pain may have been co-opted to also feel social pain.

He felt like the effects of Tylenol they were seeing were similar to mind wandering. People cared less about social rejection. They didn’t respond as much to existential anxiety; a similar kind of sensitivity reduction to the outside world.

“I think we should absolutely have a scientific concern to recognize the neurocognitive and neuro-affective consequences of substances that we've heretofore thought of as benign,” Handy says.

Ratner says there’s also the intriguing possibility that acetaminophen might be used therapeutically one day for people dealing with minor cases of depression or social anxiety.

The last point is the one which i had observed in my own behaviour and led me to suspect a correlation between acetaminophen/paracetamol and my "feeling good".

Re: Medications that change who we are

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I found out a year later that it dramatically affected my personality. More or less like in the article, but in the opposite way. So the blood pressure medication made you more calm? You didn’t specify the medication they prescribed, but that’s a common effect of certain types of blood pressure medication. In fact, certain blood pressure medications are prescribed off-label for their calming properties. One blood p…

Blood pressure medicine does make you more calm and this is known anecdotally among the medical community. I know this because I know of medical students taking it before giving a speech. Literally the medicine is well known for making you perfectly calm. You know that magic pill that can get rid of your approach anxiety? I hear, this is it, though I never tried. I'm wondering if anyone more in the "know" can comment…

Be careful: There are multiple classes of blood pressure medications with different mechanisms of action.

You're referring to beta blockers, which can reduce the stress response in your sympathetic nervous system.

> Literally the medicine is well known for making you perfectly calm.

> You know that magic pill that can get rid of your approach anxiety? I hear, this is it,

They're not magic. They won't make you perfectly calm and they won't magically rid you of different types of anxiety. Beta blockers are used in mild cases to help tip the scales toward calm, but they won't cure major anxiety or make you superhumanly calm.

Like any medication, it's best used as a combination treatment approach with therapy and other interventions. As always, refer to a doctor for a proper treatment plan, never try to self medicate with prescription medications.

Re: Medications that change who we are

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem goes at least as far back as Plato and the allegory of the cave. Plato spread this concept that there was a difference between the body and mind or soul, and Western culture has never really recovered from the stupidity of that idea. There's really no evidence or justification for it. Your mind and your body are the same thing.

Some people feel one’s essence is fundamentally different from one’s body, including the brain as part of the body . Not saying I support this notion, but to brush it aside as stupid or unjustified seems a bit hasty in view of the huge literature behind these issues. Moreover, doesn’t the notion of reincarnation in some parts of the Eastern world show it’s not restricted to Western culture? I’m sure there plenty more…

> Some people feel one’s essence is fundamentally different from one’s body, including the brain as part of the body. Not saying I support this notion, but to brush it aside as stupid or unjustified seems a bit hasty in view of the huge literature behind these issues.

I don't think it is.

Consider: someone decides to say something without evidence. It's obviously okay to brush this aside and just say "there's no evidence for that". Then hundreds of thousands of people read what that person said, and then decide to propagate the idea by saying it themselves, still without any evidence. You're claiming that at some point, the bulk of literature means we can't say it's a stupid idea any more? I disagree. Ideas are determined valid by the evidence or lack of evidence, not by how popular they are.

In fact, when a stupid idea is popular, that's when it causes the most damage. So when there's a bulk of literature propagating a stupid idea, that's the time when it's important to say that it's a stupid idea.

> Moreover, doesn’t the notion of reincarnation in some parts of the Eastern world show it’s not restricted to Western culture?

You'll note I didn't say it was restricted to Western culture. I think Plato has a large part in spreading the idea in Western culture, but I'd guess he wasn't the first, and other people probably came up with the same idea independently.

Re: Medications that change who we are

#90
post #72

>"It turns out many ordinary medications don’t just affect our bodies – they affect our brains." I feel like perpetuating this mindset is the ultimate sin of modern psychiatry and the entire industry of psychiatric pharmaceuticals - your brain is your body. It's not some special thing that sits apart from it. It is an integral part of the whole, no different than your kidneys or liver. People think they can take an a…

I read that as They don't just affect our hardware, but also our software.

Right, but the point being made is that there is no distinction between the two.
Post reply on HN