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1 bitcoin worth more than dollar

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Re: 1 bitcoin worth more than dollar

#81
post #77
post #45

I really like the idea, but I have a question about how transaction growth can be sustained once all 21MM bitcoins have been generated. In order to support borrowing/lending IMO you need an increasing supply of currency. Otherwise where will the interest on debt come from? The only other type of non-inflating "currency system" I can think of is the market for collectibles (baseball cards, limited edition artwork, etc…

This is largely true. Bitcoin is a brilliant idea combining a several innovations that in and of themselves would be laudable. Still, it is most likely true that expecting Mr. Satoshi Nakamato to have a perfectly formed working model of a new financial system at one go is unrealistic, even with his obvious brilliance and dedication. As a corollary to your point, other world currencies are going to be considerably mor…

First, those that get the coins first aren't "distributing" them into larger circulation. If they generate a block and get the reward, they either save the bitcoins or buy goods/services with them. This is not "distributing", but just normal trade.

Second, how else do you bring coins into the market? Be forced to buy them from the system's founder? I doubt that would catch on. Reserve a set number for each person onthe planet and give it to them when they ask for them? I don't think I could count all of the problems with that idea. Hand them out some arbitrary number of some supply in a first come first serve manner? I don't see how that would be an improvement.

The system needs people to generate blocks in order to provide the security of the system, but generating blocks has costs associated with it (hardware, electricity). Why not reward those block generators that are providing the system's security with new coins for each block they generate, at least until the number of transactions per block grow to a point that block generators can charge transaction fees?

Block generators aren't just generating blocks for the fun of it...they want bitcoins so they can spend them, which means those bitcoins will go to others, who can then further spend them, etc. Anyone can do it. GPU mining is profitable for most who wish to make the investment. There's no central authority choosing who gets to generate new blocks. Each person chooses whether they want to generate blocks or not.

If you don't want to generate blocks, but still want bitcoins, then you offer goods/services for bitcoins.

So far no one has thought of any less arbitrary way to introduce bitcoins into the network while continuing to support the security of the network at the same time.

And the term "proof-of-work" is misleading. They're generating blocks in such a way to deliberately make it difficult for someone else to attack the network by generating replacement blocks in an attempt to double-spend their bitcoins. They're not doing these calculations as an attempt to prove they're not some malicious node. Block generators do the work of creating a block, and if someone wants to double-spend their money, they have to generate that block and every single block that's been generated afterwards with at least the same total difficulty of the other blocks. This can only theoretically be accomplished if they have more processing power than the entire bitcoin network, and even then it would take a long time to do unless they had a lot more. Otherwise they just fall further and further behind as the bitcoin network block generators increase in power and the difficulty increases. Contrary to the opinions of some, these calculations are not wasteful, but are a necessary part of the system's security.

Re: 1 bitcoin worth more than dollar

#82
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it can be quickly sent and received over the internet anonymously, which is something gold cannot do.

And today, not only do we not send gold over the Internet to buy things, we don't even send paper US dollars. Instead, banking systems send electronic messages to one another, indicating a transaction has occurred and that two or more accounts should be modified in a certain way. Take this second thing, get rid of actual physical gold or actual paper dollars, and you basically have what Bitcoin is. Pure electronic, p…

Yes, but my biggest question is, why will anyone start using it?

Gold was valuable before it was money. Bitcoin is not.

These first movers that are paying real money for bitcoin, seem to only be doing so because they think other people will use it in the future. There's a name for that, it's called a bubble.

To have a sustainable currency, the medium of exchange should be valuable, even if no one else is using it as money.

Re: 1 bitcoin worth more than dollar

#83
post #55
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoins are a creation by some who don't understand what a currency is. Bitcoins back to nothing and are only useful to the extent that you can fool another ideologue into taking them; for as long as they've been around, it is far, far easier to obtain goods or services with Warcraft gold or Microsoft Points, which aren't even trying to be universal currencies. (Just yesterday I was on a blog that cataloged the reas…

"Bitcoins are a creation by some who don't understand what a currency is." How ironic that someone would say such a thing, and then immediately post a few paragraphs displaying their own misunderstandings of what a currency is. Do you know what a "hard money" is? Bitcoin is a digital hard money. You talk so much about backing...backing is nonsense. Gold isn't backed by anything. It's just matter, like everything else…

Another interesting look at the psychological theory of money on a recent This American Life:

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/423/t...

In particular, the section from about 10:30 discusses how Brazil combatted inflation by essentially replacing their currency with something that everyone agreed was valuable.

Re: 1 bitcoin worth more than dollar

#84
post #2

For those who are new to Bitcoin and would like to learn more: Bitcoin FAQ - https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/FAQ Bitcoin Wiki - https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Main_Page How Bitcoin Works - https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/How_bitcoin_works Installing Bitcoin - https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Getting_started HowTo Mining Bitcoin: Fedora 14: http://bit.ly/fb54ye and Ubuntu: http://bit.ly/ewVzhu The Bitcoin Faucet (free bitcoins) - https:/…

All of the above absolutely screams BULLSHIT harder than anything I've ever read before.

(2.10.11, at around 14:10 MST): How does this have any positive karma at all?

Re: 1 bitcoin worth more than dollar

#85
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And today, not only do we not send gold over the Internet to buy things, we don't even send paper US dollars. Instead, banking systems send electronic messages to one another, indicating a transaction has occurred and that two or more accounts should be modified in a certain way. Take this second thing, get rid of actual physical gold or actual paper dollars, and you basically have what Bitcoin is. Pure electronic, p…

Yes, but my biggest question is, why will anyone start using it? Gold was valuable before it was money. Bitcoin is not. These first movers that are paying real money for bitcoin, seem to only be doing so because they think other people will use it in the future. There's a name for that, it's called a bubble. To have a sustainable currency, the medium of exchange should be valuable, even if no one else is using it as…

Fair point. I understand. However, some people today are actually accepting Bitcoin as a method of payment. Not everywhere. Amazon doesn't accept it. Your local water utility doesn't take it. But somebody takes it. And then there are ways of converting Bitcoins back into say US dollars. And then you can pay Amazon and your water utility in dollars. And so on. It is happening already.

In prisons, cigarettes are often used as a form of accepted currency. Weird but, as you said, cigarettes have functional value before and beyond their arbitrary assigned role as currency. Now take these little pieces of green-ish papers in my wallet, with the funny markings on it. I heard a rumor that others will take it as a unit of payment, even though in reality, it's just a little piece of paper with some markings on it. It's actual functional value could maybe be that of a piece of tissue paper to wipe my ass. Except it's not very good at it. So I wouldn't even use it for that. The US government says, "Forsooth and yeah verily, these pieces of paper shall be the currency we use!" and couple that with a promise to accept it themselves as a unit of payment, and therefore, poof, it now has value.

Last point, if you parachute onto a tiny uncharted Pacific island and contact a lost tribe there, and offer them $20 USD for their food, they will most likely say, "Sorry, we only take melons and womenfolk as currency. We don't take US dollars, and we don't take American Express." Lesson: what is accepted as currency varies by individual and culture and time period. It's totally arbitrary.

Re: 1 bitcoin worth more than dollar

#86
post #55
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoins are a creation by some who don't understand what a currency is. Bitcoins back to nothing and are only useful to the extent that you can fool another ideologue into taking them; for as long as they've been around, it is far, far easier to obtain goods or services with Warcraft gold or Microsoft Points, which aren't even trying to be universal currencies. (Just yesterday I was on a blog that cataloged the reas…

"Bitcoins are a creation by some who don't understand what a currency is." How ironic that someone would say such a thing, and then immediately post a few paragraphs displaying their own misunderstandings of what a currency is. Do you know what a "hard money" is? Bitcoin is a digital hard money. You talk so much about backing...backing is nonsense. Gold isn't backed by anything. It's just matter, like everything else…

Gold is backed by being gold. It also isn't a currency anymore; the properties necessary to be a currency are no longer true of it. Wire me some gold, please. Not some numbers that are actually disguised dollars, some actual gold.

I'm not a goldbug precisely because I don't think gold is worth anywhere near what people think it is. The "durable value" it had in the decoration field is gone. If it were ever actually put to the test it would collapse to a much lower value reflecting its actual industrial and decorative values which are nothing like what they used to be.

The subjectivity of value is why backing is so important if your currency isn't to collapse. Something's got to stop the subjective system from just deciding the value is 0, aka, hyperinflation. Or, more accurately, realizing the value is zero.

It's easy to wave some academic theories around and act intellectually superior, but call me when you've actually got a functional currency that corresponds to what you claim is possible and even remotely resembles the real world market size of even Microsoft Points or Eve Online's currency. BitCoin is not it, and it won't ever be it.

Re: 1 bitcoin worth more than dollar

#87
post #86
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Bitcoins are a creation by some who don't understand what a currency is." How ironic that someone would say such a thing, and then immediately post a few paragraphs displaying their own misunderstandings of what a currency is. Do you know what a "hard money" is? Bitcoin is a digital hard money. You talk so much about backing...backing is nonsense. Gold isn't backed by anything. It's just matter, like everything else…

Gold is backed by being gold. It also isn't a currency anymore; the properties necessary to be a currency are no longer true of it. Wire me some gold, please. Not some numbers that are actually disguised dollars, some actual gold. I'm not a goldbug precisely because I don't think gold is worth anywhere near what people think it is. The "durable value" it had in the decoration field is gone. If it were ever actually p…

It also isn't a currency anymore;

This isn't the result of free markets, but a result of the actions of violent institutions.

The "durable value" it had in the decoration field is gone. The durability isn't a matter of decoration. The durability matters most in that it's not going to rot/rust away, so that an ounce of gold remains and ounce of gold rather than turning into half an ounce of gold.

If it were ever actually put to the test it would collapse to a much lower value reflecting its actual industrial and decorative values which are nothing like what they used to be.

You're forgetting it's value for trading and as a good store of value, which are most like among the biggest reasons it is valued by most people.

The subjectivity of value is why backing is so important if your currency isn't to collapse. Something's got to stop the subjective system from just deciding the value is 0, aka, hyperinflation. Or, more accurately, realizing the value is zero.

The "backing" is also subjectively valued...everything that is valued is valued subjectively. The universe doesn't set some standard value for things that humans are supposed to agree with.

but call me when you've actually got a functional currency that corresponds to what you claim is possible and even remotely resembles the real world market size of even Microsoft Points or Eve Online's currency. BitCoin is not it, and it won't ever be it.

Bitcoin just started as a grassroots project that is growing and growing quickly. You'll be hearing more news about it's further successes, I'm sure. Maybe after a few years of watching it grow, you'll decide you're ready for it.

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