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Philosophy as a public service

nautil.us

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Re: Philosophy as a public service

#81

Post by shard972 »

gloriousduke wrote: post #62
shard972 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Postmodernist's would disagree with you heavily that the two domains intersect. Philosophy goal is uncover truth where science is restricted mostly to the realm of facts and empirical truths. An example would be the question of the meaning of life, science has little ability to answer this question other that to claim it doesn't actually exist or it's just a complex expression of atoms working together where with phi…

This may sound absurd, but you actually need some (mostly settled) philosophy to determine what “facts and empirical truths” are.

Yes i agree and that is probably what my original point should have been.

There is a common thread ive seen among alot of people today where everything is understood through a truth lens of science based materialism as it is inherently assumed in western culture that the source of all truth is science.

It's a topic that could be debated for years but I think a lot of the issues around fake news are heavily influenced by this cultural bias and the inability for people to reason about events conveyed to them by unreliable facts.

Re: Philosophy as a public service

#82

Post by empath75 »

elfexec wrote: post #77
xenologist wrote: post #50

I believe what the world needs now is philosophy. What we're experiencing is a crisis of meaning. Philosophy is a shield against meaninglessness and conceptual confusion. In an information environment full of overabundant conflicting and clashing signals, we need philosophy to straighten it out and confer order to the perceptual field. The fact that many people don't understand or hold philosophy in contempt is a maj…

> What we're experiencing is a crisis of meaning. Philosophy is a shield against meaninglessness and conceptual confusion. This is simply not true. What you are describing is religion. Outside of the realm of logic, much of philosophy is a neverending open-ended question. Philosophy is great because it exercises the brain and teaches you to think rationally and try to see things from as many angles as possible. But i…

Philosophy from the very beginning concerned itself with exactly those questions. Some of that was subsumed into religion and science at some point but they are all very much in the realm of philosophy, classically and currently.

I’m not religious, and I think I have fairly conclusive answers to those questions drawn from philosophy — there’s no soul or life after death and no inherent meaning to life.

If you’re going to argue that’s exclusively the realm of religion, then what were nietzche and Plato and Sartre doing?

Re: Philosophy as a public service

#83

Post by empath75 »

B1FF_PSUVM wrote: post #79
xenologist wrote: post #50

I believe what the world needs now is philosophy. What we're experiencing is a crisis of meaning. Philosophy is a shield against meaninglessness and conceptual confusion. In an information environment full of overabundant conflicting and clashing signals, we need philosophy to straighten it out and confer order to the perceptual field. The fact that many people don't understand or hold philosophy in contempt is a maj…

> I believe what the world needs now is philosophy. That and arsonists. Sheesh, most of our troubles come from applied philosophy - ideas translated into memes that went viral, such as salvation, enlightenment, communism, environmentalism, etc. That's where you get really large scale disturbances of the mob. Otherwise people would be chewing the cud peacefully, give or take a few bashings of the nearest tribe.

People engaged in large scale warfare and oppression before philosophy existed. Philosophy lead to better methods but people don’t need more of a motive beyond “I want your stuff” to kill each other.

Re: Philosophy as a public service

#84

Post by merpnderp »

simmanian wrote: post #64
xenologist wrote: post #50

I believe what the world needs now is philosophy. What we're experiencing is a crisis of meaning. Philosophy is a shield against meaninglessness and conceptual confusion. In an information environment full of overabundant conflicting and clashing signals, we need philosophy to straighten it out and confer order to the perceptual field. The fact that many people don't understand or hold philosophy in contempt is a maj…

I think the crisis of meaning is happening because existing philosophies do not provide enough value anymore in today's world. I believe a non-reductionist and non-dualistic worldview can be the solution. We must see that the world is not a "war of all men against all men" as Hobbes describes in the Leviathan, and realize we are all interdependent beings that exist as expressions of relationships, which we form toget…

But it is in our very DNA to war for status and prestige. Every animal does it, there's a pecking order for every species. No brain surgeon will happily get stuck taking out the trash because a philosopher says we all need to get along and stop striving for position.

Philosophy should be telling us that hierarchies are natural and playing the game is healthy, as even if you're on the low end there's still plenty of game to "win".

Re: Philosophy as a public service

#85

Post by dx87 »

empath75 wrote: post #82
elfexec wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What we're experiencing is a crisis of meaning. Philosophy is a shield against meaninglessness and conceptual confusion. This is simply not true. What you are describing is religion. Outside of the realm of logic, much of philosophy is a neverending open-ended question. Philosophy is great because it exercises the brain and teaches you to think rationally and try to see things from as many angles as possible. But i…

Philosophy from the very beginning concerned itself with exactly those questions. Some of that was subsumed into religion and science at some point but they are all very much in the realm of philosophy, classically and currently. I’m not religious, and I think I have fairly conclusive answers to those questions drawn from philosophy — there’s no soul or life after death and no inherent meaning to life. If you’re goin…

You're agreeing with them. Philosophy doesn't protect you from meaninglessness, like you said, looking at things rationally, our lives are meaningless in the long term. Religion helps get rid of that feeling of meaninglessness by telling people that you don't just dissapear when you die, and what you do while alive matters for eternity. OP said that philosophy will help protect people from feeling like their life is meaningless, but it's the opposite.

Re: Philosophy as a public service

#86

Post by dogcomplex »

xenologist wrote: post #50

I believe what the world needs now is philosophy. What we're experiencing is a crisis of meaning. Philosophy is a shield against meaninglessness and conceptual confusion. In an information environment full of overabundant conflicting and clashing signals, we need philosophy to straighten it out and confer order to the perceptual field. The fact that many people don't understand or hold philosophy in contempt is a maj…

I recommend the Philosophise This podcast for some excellent (and concise) exploration of the history of philosophy and how it relates to today's world

Re: Philosophy as a public service

#87

Post by bittercynic »

merpnderp wrote: post #84
simmanian wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the crisis of meaning is happening because existing philosophies do not provide enough value anymore in today's world. I believe a non-reductionist and non-dualistic worldview can be the solution. We must see that the world is not a "war of all men against all men" as Hobbes describes in the Leviathan, and realize we are all interdependent beings that exist as expressions of relationships, which we form toget…

But it is in our very DNA to war for status and prestige. Every animal does it, there's a pecking order for every species. No brain surgeon will happily get stuck taking out the trash because a philosopher says we all need to get along and stop striving for position. Philosophy should be telling us that hierarchies are natural and playing the game is healthy, as even if you're on the low end there's still plenty of g…

I don't think it is universal or unavoidable to have to play games to establish yourself in a pecking order. In many situations it seems like we work together with our fellow humans towards some common goal, or just enjoy each other's company. This is just one middle-aged mid-status dude's perspective, though, seems your perspective is in conflict with mine.

Re: Philosophy as a public service

#88

Post by TomMckenny »

merpnderp wrote: post #84
simmanian wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the crisis of meaning is happening because existing philosophies do not provide enough value anymore in today's world. I believe a non-reductionist and non-dualistic worldview can be the solution. We must see that the world is not a "war of all men against all men" as Hobbes describes in the Leviathan, and realize we are all interdependent beings that exist as expressions of relationships, which we form toget…

But it is in our very DNA to war for status and prestige. Every animal does it, there's a pecking order for every species. No brain surgeon will happily get stuck taking out the trash because a philosopher says we all need to get along and stop striving for position. Philosophy should be telling us that hierarchies are natural and playing the game is healthy, as even if you're on the low end there's still plenty of g…

Competition for resources is only one human behavior. In nature, it is carefully balanced not to disrupt the stability of the well functioning community that all primates must have at all times to survive.

Being social animals, another more critical instinct is the need to cooperate. Indeed, eliminating cooperation from a human group will extinguish it faster than eliminating competition (assuming it's even possible). And when people have a choice in the matter, pecking order is based on amount of support the higher up people provide to the group, not the leaders ability to serve himself: people do not knowingly and freely back someone who has no interest in backing them.

Also instinctive is the sense of fairness[1] Of course those with an abundance of resources might want to convince others that this instinct is unnatural or somehow harmful. But it is clearly a well established instinct over a wide range of mammals and exists for a reason.

And while the meaning of life varies greatly from person to person, I suspect that a life lived solely to maximize one's own resources will be as comfortable as it feels meaningless. I image evolution has made it that way. At least so people will have children but also to work fairly with others. Otherwise we would have wandered completely alone in the jungles and been eaten out of existence by Pliocene tigers.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meiU6TxysCg&feature=youtu.be...

Re: Philosophy as a public service

#89

Post by elfexec »

empath75 wrote: post #82
elfexec wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What we're experiencing is a crisis of meaning. Philosophy is a shield against meaninglessness and conceptual confusion. This is simply not true. What you are describing is religion. Outside of the realm of logic, much of philosophy is a neverending open-ended question. Philosophy is great because it exercises the brain and teaches you to think rationally and try to see things from as many angles as possible. But i…

Philosophy from the very beginning concerned itself with exactly those questions. Some of that was subsumed into religion and science at some point but they are all very much in the realm of philosophy, classically and currently. I’m not religious, and I think I have fairly conclusive answers to those questions drawn from philosophy — there’s no soul or life after death and no inherent meaning to life. If you’re goin…

> If you’re going to argue that’s exclusively the realm of religion, then what were nietzche and Plato and Sartre doing?

I'm arguing that certainty is the realm of religion. "Religion provides certainty. Philosophy is more honest and does not."

When it comes to the meaning of life, good and evil, soul or the abyss, heaven or hell, religion provides certainty. There are 10 commandments and accept Christ. You have the rules laid out for you.

Philosophy is a neverending open-ended question when it comes to these questions.

In other words, you can keep asking questions in philosophy. In religion, you have the answers so there is no need to keep asking questions. You have certainty.

Re: Philosophy as a public service

#90

Post by dr_dshiv »

fatbird wrote: post #38
dr_dshiv wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the point of learning about Pythagoreanism isn't to learn ancient history. It is to learn philosophy. And if pythagoreanism-platonism is the most influential thread of philosophy of all time, then modern philosophy would need to obviate that legacy (like modern chemistry obviates ancient chemistry), integrate it, or simply remain ignorant of it.

In my program, we had a saying that lowbrow philosophers end every argument with "Plato said it first"; middlebrows say "Kant said it first"; highbrows say "Wittgenstein said it first." Modern philosophy hasn't "obviated" Plato, per se, but any competent philosopher today can discuss what Plato thought generally and how/why we think differently today. The philosophical method of analysis and argument remains, but no…

It seems to me quite a tall order to say that "any competent philosopher today can discuss what Plato thought generally and how/why we think differently today."

Do you have a summary or link to one?

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