I'm graduating with a CS degree but I don't feel like I know how to program • Hacker News Board

Re: I'm graduating with a CS degree but I don't feel like I know how to program

#81

Post by cynicalkane » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 4:59 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #62

cynicalkane wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to play devil's advocate here, and point out that you can actually construct the proper automaton where the transition conditions are decided by regular expressions. It might work like this: some programmer working on the project realizes something can't be parsed in a finite state machine, and 'cleverly' separates out one batch of regular expressions into a loop/recursive call. Repeat until the programmers…

I'm going to play devil's advocate here, and point out that you can actually construct the proper automaton where the transition conditions are decided by regular expressions. It might work like this: some programmer working on the project realizes something can't be parsed in a finite state machine, and 'cleverly' separates out one batch of regular expressions into a loop/recursive call In this case, you've created…

The implication was that the project couldn't succeed because the management didn't understand basic automata theory, and insisted the programmers use only regular expressions. Presumably the regular expressions were being invoked by a Turing-complete programming language. Unless management decided that Turing-complete programming languages were not allowed, as well.

Re: I'm graduating with a CS degree but I don't feel like I know how to program

#82

Post by bad_user » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 5:00 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #20

bad_user wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

management didn't understand basic automata theory Do tell more about it; as I feel that's not why they wasted millions. IMHO management isn't required to understand much about CS, as long as the relationship with the developers is as between a customer and an engineer (i.e. customer asks for stuff, engineer explains what he can and cannot do). Most problems with management comes from a disconnect with reality. Even…

management didn't understand basic automata theory Do tell more about it; as I feel that's not why they wasted millions. That company tried to translate code from one programming language to another using only regular expressions. (This was a long time ago when you couldn't almost count on most "regular expression" implementations being Turing Complete.) Perhaps the problem was really that engineers who understood th…

@stcredzero, that was exactly my point ... as a software developer I would never bend over and do as being told in that manner, because it is impossible to finish the task.

It wasn't just the management to be blamed: it the case of building bridges, engineers / architects can even go to prison if a bridge collapses.

Re: I'm graduating with a CS degree but I don't feel like I know how to program

#83

Post by johngalt » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 5:01 PM UTC

I'm graduating with an English degree but I don't feel like I know how to write a novel.

Re: I'm graduating with a CS degree but I don't feel like I know how to program

#84

Post by axod » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 5:03 PM UTC

eftpotrm wrote: post #66

axod wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either he just doesn't have the natural aptitude, or he doesn't love it enough to learn. I can't fathom how anyone could be a programmer/trying to become a programmer and not have constant side projects, partially written OSes, games, etc It's easy to say "I want to be an X", but then you realize that you're not spending enough time doing X to become good at it. And the reason you're not spending enough time doing it…

I disagree. The (quite old; it'd be interesting to see how this panned out) question came across to me as someone who, at the end of their many years in education up to this point, has got very used to directed learning. They are used to learning by being set a challenge with some accompanying theory and completing the challenge. They may well be good at this and enjoy doing it, but they haven't become used to search…

It came across to me as someone who wants to learn programming for the wrong reasons. For example they heard it pays well. Rather than wanting to learn it because they love it.

Re: I'm graduating with a CS degree but I don't feel like I know how to program

#85

Post by joeycfan » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 5:11 PM UTC

That's probably true - I have a cs degree and it's mostly good for telling big O complexities, which is nice, but has nothing to do with programming (except to know to avoid n cubed algorithms...)

Re: I'm graduating with a CS degree but I don't feel like I know how to program

#86

Post by stcredzero » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 5:13 PM UTC

cynicalkane wrote: post #81

stcredzero wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to play devil's advocate here, and point out that you can actually construct the proper automaton where the transition conditions are decided by regular expressions. It might work like this: some programmer working on the project realizes something can't be parsed in a finite state machine, and 'cleverly' separates out one batch of regular expressions into a loop/recursive call In this case, you've created…

The implication was that the project couldn't succeed because the management didn't understand basic automata theory, and insisted the programmers use only regular expressions. Presumably the regular expressions were being invoked by a Turing-complete programming language. Unless management decided that Turing-complete programming languages were not allowed, as well.

Amazing how often Turing-complete programming languages aren't utilized to their full potential. (And for the record, no I wasn't on that project. I have a CS degree and I remember automata.)

Re: I'm graduating with a CS degree but I don't feel like I know how to program

#87

Post by burgerbrain » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 5:13 PM UTC

absconditus wrote: post #79

cletus wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally don't know of any surgeons who performed surgery before going to medical school or outside of medical school for enjoyment.

Medicine has a much more rigorous training program.

Same goes for other more common disciplines too, especially the engineering disciplines. How many people were building bridges, designing buildings, or creating CPUs before their formal education?

The engineering-ish side of CS (programming) is far more similar to the sciences (physics, chemistry) or mathematics than other engineering disciplines are because anyone with drive can and does delve into it without the help/permission of formal educators.

This is to say nothing of the fact that real CS is a branch of mathematics...

Re: I'm graduating with a CS degree but I don't feel like I know how to program

#88

Post by stcredzero » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 5:15 PM UTC

cynicalkane wrote: post #80

stcredzero wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't that still be a finite state automata? The key is the bit about the "recursive call."

It doesn't have to be recursive. Iteration can also be non-finite-state. In fact, all recursive programs can be transformed to iterative ones.

Yes, thanks for exposing yet another Comp Sci fundamental tidbit. Any word deriving from "recursive" should be a red flag in this case.

Re: I'm graduating with a CS degree but I don't feel like I know how to program

#89

Post by uscfan1781 » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 5:16 PM UTC

This topic hit home for me because I am graduating this year with a CS degree. As many of you have pointed out, a CS degree doesn't teach you how to program. I think it does give you a base of knowledge that you can then build upon to become a great coder.

I would say that 30% of my programming skill and knowledge comes from what I learned in class, while 70% comes from reading, watching lectures online, having friends critique my code, looking at open source projects, etc. But without that initial, introductory training from my CS department I would never have been in a position to understand those other topics.

Personally I would love to see a community effort to put together a free, open source "bridge the gap" curriculum for new college grads. It would focus mostly on coding best practices, code reviews, the importance of tests, engineering work flows, version control, staging servers, etc. In particular I think it should focus on real-world codebases as opposed to the one-off programs you constantly write in academia. Sure you can learn most of this stuff at your first job, but I think there are a ton of people out there who would love to learn this stuff, but they don't really know what they need to learn or where to start.

Re: I'm graduating with a CS degree but I don't feel like I know how to program

#90

Post by dominostars » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 5:18 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #39

This touches on several issues. 1. Should college teach you to program? This is a philosophical question about whether a CS degree should be educational or vocational . The general consensus seems to be that it should be the former not the latter. It should give you the theoretical foundation that you can apply to almost anything. Therefore, college won't necessarily teach you any programming beyond what you need to…

"Frankly, every good programmer I know started programming long before they went to college or at least programmed outside of college for their enjoyment. If you haven't done that and don't do that then I really have to question if you're in the right profession."

This scared me in college, since I hardly programmed before (or even during) my degree. However, I've found that it's simply not true. Not just for myself, but for the many people I've met who started with completely different careers before getting into programming.