My wife and I are contemplating unschooling our kids. The longer our son is in primary school, the more we see the deterioration of his willingness to learn anything school-related. He hates homework (as do most kids), and this is even more painful to see given that it has been shown that homework is essentially useless for learning performance. He still likes to write and do math, but as long as he is in school, we…
I'm curious about Page & Brin - I wasn't aware they didn't go through conventional schooling. What was their background?
The Lesson to Unlearn
81–90 of 588 posts
Re: The Lesson to Unlearn
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
> but as long as he is in school, we have to take care that his interest doesn’t go south. [...] During school holidays, he actually starts to do school exercises for fun; those are the very same exercises he would fight against doing for hours on a regular school day. Go figure. That does not sound like exercises themselves would be bad or that he would cease to be interested in learning overall. It more sounds like…
My parents and teachers gave up on attempting to assign me homework and make me do it. I despised homework. Interesting assignments were great! But day to day homework? Never did it, which isn’t a good thing (and this isn’t me attempting to brag). The only reason they stopped is I was getting top marks in every subject anyway, and the only reason I had that was I had a tutor who pushed me so far beyond high school le…
Most kids with good grades don't have tutor, unless they struggle a lot or it is before entrance tests for high school and college.
Re: The Lesson to Unlearn
#83So in some perverse sense school does prepare most of us well for working life, as most of the time doing well in BigCo isn't to actually perform well or to actually make a difference, it's to leave the impression of it at the right time with the people that matter for your next promotion.
Re: The Lesson to Unlearn
#84> I suspect many people implicitly assume that doing working in a field with bad tests is the price of making lots of money.
> Now you can make lots of money by making cool things.
An analogous set of incentive structures, which compels people in elite universities to play the tests applies to intra & inter-company interactions as well: companies who play for the tests will enjoy structural advantages over companies which do not; and this lever allows winner-takes-most mechanisms via buyouts, consolidations, private equity.
While founders, individually, may make out of this wealthy, companies, and society as a whole suffers, and playing for the tests, as a behavior, saturates.
Re: The Lesson to Unlearn
#85---
Phaedrus' argument for the abolition of the degree and grading system produced a nonplussed or negative reaction in all but a few students at first, since it seemed, on first judgment, to destroy the whole University system. One student laid it wide open when she said with complete candor, "Of course you can't eliminate the degree and grading system. After all, that's what we're here for."
She spoke the complete truth. The idea that the majority of students attend a university for an education independent of the degree and grades is a little hypocrisy everyone is happier not to expose. Occasionally some students do arrive for an education but rote and the mechanical nature of the institution soon converts them to a less idealistic attitude.
The demonstrator was an argument that elimination of grades and degrees would destroy this hypocrisy. Rather than deal with generalities it dealt with the specific career of an imaginary student who more or less typified what was found in the classroom, a student completely conditioned to work for a grade rather than the knowledge the grade was supposed to represent.
Such a student, the demonstrator hypothesized, would go to his first class, get his assignment and probably do it out of habit. He might go to his second and third as well. But eventually the novelty of the course would wear off and, because his academic life was not his only life, the pressure of other obligations or desires would create circumstances in where he just would not be able to get an assignment in.
Since there was no degree or grading system he would incur no penalty for this. Subsequent lectures which presumed he'd completed the assignment might be a little more difficult to understand, however, and this difficulty, in turn, might weaken his interest to a point where the next assignment, which he would find quite hard, would also be dropped. Again no penalty.
In time his weaker and weaker understanding of what the lectures were about would make it more and more difficult for him to pay attention in class. Eventually he would see that he wasn't learning much; and facing the continual pressure of outside obligations, he would stop studying, feel guilty about this and stop attending class. Again, no penalty would be attached.
But what had happened? The student, with no hard feelings on anybody's part, would have flunked himself out. Good! This is what should have happened. He wasn't there for a real education in the first place and he had no real business there at all. A large amount of money and effort had been saved and there would be no stigma of failure and ruin to haunt him the rest of his life. No bridges had been burned.
The student's biggest problem was a slave mentality which had been built into him by years of carrot-and-whip grading, a mule mentality which said, "If you won't whip me, I won't work." He didn't get whipped. He didn't work. And the cart of civilization, which he supposedly was being trained to pull, was just going to have to creak along a little slower without him.
This is a tragedy, however, only if you presume that the cart of civilization, "the system," is pulled by mules. This is a common, vocational, "location" point of view, but it's not the Church attitude.
The Church attitude is that civilization, or "the system" or "society" or whatever you want to call it, is best served not by mules but by free men. The purpose of abolishing grades and degrees is not to punish mules or get rid of them but to provide an environment in which that mule can turn into a free man.
The hypothetical student, still a mule, would drift around for a while. He would get another kind of education quite as valuable as the one he'd abandoned, in what used to be called the "school of hard knocks." Instead of wasting money and time as a high-status mule, he would now have to get a job as a low-status mule, maybe as a mechanic. Actually his real status would go up. He would be making a contribution for a change. Maybe that's what he would do for the rest of his life. Maybe he'd found his level. But don't count on it.
In time - six months; five years, perhaps - a change could easily begin to take place. He would become less and less satisfied with a kind of dumb, day-to-day shop-work. His creative intelligence, stifled by too much theory and too many grades in college, would now become reawakened by the boredom of the shop. Thousands of hours of frustrating mechanical problems would have made him more interested in machine design. He would like to design machinery himself. He'd think he could do a better job. He would try modifying a few engines, meet with success, look for more success, but feel blocked because he didn't have the theoretical information. He would discover that when before he felt stupid because of his lack of interest in theoretical information, he'd now find a brand of theoretical information which he'd have a lot of respect for, namely, mechanical engineering.
So he would come back to our degreeless and gradeless school, but with a difference. He'd no longer be a grade-motivated person. He'd be a knowledge motivated person. He would need no external pushing to learn. His push would come from inside. He'd be a free man. He wouldn't need a lot of discipline to shape him up. In fact, if the instructors assigned him were slacking on the job he would be likely to shape them up by asking rude questions. He'd be there to learn something, would be paying to learn something and they'd better come up with it.
Motivation of this sort, once it catches hold, is a ferocious force, and in the gradeless, degreeless institution where our student would find himself, he wouldn't stop with rote engineering information. Physics and mathematics would come within his sphere of interest because he'd see he needed them. Metallurgy and electrical engineering would come up for attention. And, in the process of intellectual maturing that these abstract studies gave him, he would be likely to branch out into other theoretical areas that weren't directly related to machines but had become part of a larger goal. This larger goal wouldn't be the imitation of an education in Universities today, glossed over and concealed by grades and degrees that gave the appearance of something happening when, in fact, almost nothing is going on. It would be the real thing.
Re: The Lesson to Unlearn
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
"The capacity to just build things without fear of being judged is invaluable" For me, I had to unlearn self judgement. This has helped so much over the last few years.
"Self-judgement" as an impostor syndrome ?
Re: The Lesson to Unlearn
#87I cofounded a technical screening startup, and despite our efforts to educate our customers that enter their questions on our platform, 95% of their custom questions are bad questions. They tend to ask trivia questions, that can quickly be googled, instead of asking work-sample questions (which we at TestDome.com prefer). I think they learned that from years of paper tests in school, it is very hard to unlearn.
Just to give you an idea, for testing web programmers we suggest questions where you need to find bugs in HTML code (https://www.testdome.com/questions/html-css/inspector/17629), while our customers would ask questions like "What does CSS stand for?"
Re: The Lesson to Unlearn
#88Good grades = Passing well paying jobs resume filter = startup initial capital for 90% of the population without access to the bank of mom and dad or a large inheritance. PG starting to lose touch with regular joe.
Half way through the essay I was thinking, surely this can't be the first time PG has realized the idea of "playing the game", which is what I've known it as all my life. But then at the end of the essay he uses that exact same phrase to hit home the point that "playing the game" is antiquated now if one desires to become rich.
While I'd agree there are more opportunities for individuals or small groups to get rich now than in 1960, for the vast majority of us, the best bet to become rich is to "play the game".
Re: The Lesson to Unlearn
#89This spends too many words justifying the stale "real hacker" tradition of dunking on education, and kindof ignores the problem of how to measure something so subjective as learning. So people who are good at tests get ahead. We get that you're not interested in grades. We all know people who play the game and win, not sincerely engage with their job or education or whatever. But I'd like to hear from pg / other peop…
Re: The Lesson to Unlearn
#90Funding, growth, usage -- these are all still one level removed from something worthwhile or beneficial. Cigarettes have amazing usage numbers even in 2019.
I'm waiting for the entrepreneur who will say he doesn't care how much money he makes or how many customers he has, only that it's worthwhile and needed doing.