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Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

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Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#81
Many of these are equivalent to demanding to speak to the manager in order to get what you want. That can backfire quickly if you’re not careful.

> Present as if you are collecting a paper trail. Prominent indicia of this include notebooks, organized files, and repeatedly asking for specific names, dates, and citations for authority “for my notes.”

I worked at a smaller company where any semi-threatening support requests were escalated up the chain to me. The “I’m taking notes to use against you” trick was a sure-fire way to get your ticket escalated, but it had the reverse effect of what customers expected. Our front-line support was empowered to diagnose customer problems, issue refunds, replace product, and even give customers free upgrades as a token of apology.

However, once the customer threatened us with the note-taking act, we had to be extremely careful about anything that would admit fault, lest they try to use it against us later. Or worse, try to take our statements out of context and tweet them to the world. Once the customer escalated the request, they got slower responses (support wasn’t my primary job), more limited options (minimize potential admissions of fault), and narrowly constrained communications (assume every response will be retweeted out of context to make us look bad).

Before you try these “Dangerous Professional” tricks, please just try to be a decent human with the front-line support staff. They deal with difficult customers all day, and the last thing they want to do is encourage another person to play the difficult customer role to get what they want. The opening example (Xcode visible in dock creating mutual understanding) is very different than sending your demands directly to the company’s general counsel or threatening to take notes for future retaliation. Please don’t use that as option 1 in your communication toolbox.

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#82

I’ve given thought in the past to some sort of ‘support reputation system’. After calling tech support, they’d rate your manner and how capable you seemed, and this would feed through into your future calls (e.g. calling an ISP with a genuine + very technical question might mean you go straight to the highest tier of tech support next time you call). It would save time for tech support workers too; no need to vet ver…

Over the years, the people who were technically capable were the ones who made the most unnecessary work for me. I trained myself to ignore everything they tried to do to solve the problem. If I have a technical problem, my colleagues should do the same with my input.

I had issues before were I was 100% convinced to know the issue and gave the supporter a really hard time walking me through the script. Wasn't as pretentious of an asshole anymore after the "this won't work, it has nothing to do with my issue" actually worked.

Nowadays I'm always trying to walk through the steps posted in the self help manuals before I actually call. If you tell them that you already did everything in this manual, they also move on quickly after a couple of questions to double check.

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#83
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Allegedly, during the invasion of the Netherlands by Nazi forces commencing on May 10th, 1940, the Dutch used "Scheveningen" or "beschuit" as a shibboleth to distinguish German speakers from Dutch. I don't quite understand that, as most Germans don't speak Dutch, full stop, and it would be trivial to distinguish them thereby, while presumably if you have gone to the trouble of learning Dutch, you'd know how to pronou…

I think it’s because in German, sch is one consonant (like sh in English), while in Dutch, sch is a consonant cluster of s-ch, ch as in Loch Ness.

Also, in many dialects of Dutch, including the standard, the long e in the first syllable of Scheveningen is pronounced closer to the English long a than the German long e, and the final -n is silent. So a typical Dutch pronunciation would be (something like) [sxeɪ̯vənɪŋə], vs. German [ʃe̝ːvənɪŋən].

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#84
post #11
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “But I’m not a shareholder!” A surprising amount of Americans are shareholders in large financial institutions. Do you have an IRA? Does it invest in e.g. mutual funds? If you own a mutual fund or index fund, you are highly likely to beneficially own fractional shares of US financial institutions. Someone who owns 0.01 shares is a shareholder; welcome to the magic of capitalism. I like this guy. He has great insigh…

Ha. My dad has an account at cooperative bank ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksbanken_und_Raiffeisenbank... ) and every time he has business at the bank, he says: "You know, I am a co-owner of this bank". Usually the personnel is confused by this.

They probably hear that dozens of times a day.

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#85

I’ve given thought in the past to some sort of ‘support reputation system’. After calling tech support, they’d rate your manner and how capable you seemed, and this would feed through into your future calls (e.g. calling an ISP with a genuine + very technical question might mean you go straight to the highest tier of tech support next time you call). It would save time for tech support workers too; no need to vet ver…

Over the years, the people who were technically capable were the ones who made the most unnecessary work for me. I trained myself to ignore everything they tried to do to solve the problem. If I have a technical problem, my colleagues should do the same with my input.

+1.

Most of the support cases I get (meaning they've escalated through 2 to 3 layers of support engineering) are XY Problems (1). The customers are smart, and typically their issue is knowing too much about one aspect of the thing they're trying to solve. They used the sickle to cut their wheat, so yup, they're going to use the sickle to dry it, bale it, and tow it to market.

Ignoring everything they're doing, and even their initial question, typically leads to better outcomes. (Except in the cases where it turns out they really do have to be doing it in this backwards manner).

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_problem

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#86
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “But I’m not a shareholder!” A surprising amount of Americans are shareholders in large financial institutions. Do you have an IRA? Does it invest in e.g. mutual funds? If you own a mutual fund or index fund, you are highly likely to beneficially own fractional shares of US financial institutions. Someone who owns 0.01 shares is a shareholder; welcome to the magic of capitalism. I like this guy. He has great insigh…

> I like this guy. He has great insight I'm sure customer service people and healthcare professionals love people coming on premises and throwing their weight around with exaggerations and half-truths. The people I know would put you on the bottom of the list.

You're lacking context. It says that when you don't know where to send correspondence at big banks you could try and address investor relations because they are usually bored and will gladly forward your complaint to the right department. This is where the investor part comes in. And only there. Other suggestions are that you could address the legal department because they are diligent by law. Or the CEO, because if it gets handed down from their office it will have more weight.

Note that the cases talked about involve legal deadlines so knowingly delaying to handle them is not a good option.

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#87

Technical support would go more smoothly if they asked about the submitter's technical level. Dreamhost's support form used to have a field on how technical are you. The options went something like "I know nothing" to ""not being funny, but I probably know than you".

I wonder why they dob't do this - it would be a win-win for every ne. I've done this for years, describe in the initial ticket your environment, and say that you're reinstalled several times. Stuck for weeks with Microsoft and Adobe on the part where they just keep parroting the script and asking to reinstall no matter how many times you say you're done it. It's infuriating!

I imagine a lot of people would oversell their capabilities. And to be fair, as annoying as it is to run through a script of basic things, sometimes it will work, even for experts.

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#88
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I understand, Cede's contractual rights make it so you are pretty close to 'owning' the stock compared to ETF/Mutual Fund. >So you can be the "beneficial owner" without being the "registed owner". Are you the 'beneficial owner' of an ETF's invested assets or just of the ETF instead?

You are the registered owner of the ETF, but the beneficial owner of the underlying shares.

Not correct. If you own an ETF you do not have voting rights of the underlying stocks. So you are not a beneficial owner of the underlying.

You also do not have "direct" access to the dividends. The fund manager will pool the dividends and pay them out on a regular schedule, after taking their cut of fees.

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#89

I've found that pretending to know someone's profession, or one related to it, is generally a very bad approach. It's easily seen through, at which point you're worse off than before. Instead, what I do with members of other professions is try to impress on them that I do not know their business but respect its complexity and our roles within the scenario. Whether it's a doctor or a plumber or even a computer technic…

About 30 years ago I was being asked by some guy I barely knew to do something over the weekend. I didn't know how to tell him that I would rather just be at home with my family. Eventually and without thinking it through, I just said "It's my weekend with the kids." He instantly became apologetic and said he understood completely. And I instantly felt like a heel for pretending to be someone I'm not. I had accidentally identified with a group that suffers in a way I did not. It worked, but the experience has stuck with me. I don't like myself when I'm too afraid to be truthful and while I don't think I hurt the other guy, it was a close call. One that I try to avoid.

edit:spelling

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#90
post #6

Another article from the same author on how to be a Dangerous Professional: https://www.kalzumeus.com/2017/09/09/identity-theft-credit-r... (HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15206926 )

> “But I’m not a shareholder!” A surprising amount of Americans are shareholders in large financial institutions. Do you have an IRA? Does it invest in e.g. mutual funds? If you own a mutual fund or index fund, you are highly likely to beneficially own fractional shares of US financial institutions. Someone who owns 0.01 shares is a shareholder; welcome to the magic of capitalism. I like this guy. He has great insigh…

I think a surprising amount of Americans are invested in the stock market. But that does not make them shareholders in us companies. Most of this exposure is through "40 act" funds like mutual funds and ETFs where investors in these funds do not have the underlying vote of the stocks the fund is invested in.
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