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Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

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Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#81

Post by vanniv »

save_ferris wrote: post #13
ComputerGuru wrote: post #3

I honestly think it is the novelty of suddenly not having fines rather than the actual not having of fines. IMHO (most) people don’t not return books when they’re a day or a week late because of fines. Ultimately, I believe it’s too early to draw any conclusions beyond observing the number of books returned for now . It will certainly be interesting to see where the steady state will wind up, though. (I’m a CPL membe…

I tend to agree. Many municipalities offer an annual discount day for folks who have outstanding toll road charges that aren't worth sending to collections. Voluntary payment skyrockets during these kinds of things.

My state instead just automatically suspends your license and sends you a traffic ticket (of about $350) if you have any outstanding toll charge after 90 days.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#82

Post by vanniv »

BoorishBears wrote: post #54
robbrown451 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm having a bit of trouble determining if that was a reply to my comment. My only point was that if things are optional to pay for, lots of people will take the thing, and not pay. That's why the grocery store hires cashiers, rather than being on the honor system.

That's not why cashiers are there. The cashier is there for when you decide to pay for your goods. If you try and walk out with them, the cashier will not stop you. For legal reasons, even the security probably won't touch you. The reason most people who don't steal isn't the punishment, it's because they don't want to steal. Likewise, removing the fine doesn't make a late book not late. People do not have some inher…

yet if there was no penalty for theft, there would be lots of theft.

(Indeed, California recently reduced the penalty for theft -- making it a misdemeanor that is very rarely prosecuted for thefts under $950, and suddenly there's a massive increase in theft, because it turns out that you can make decent money stealing stuff $949 at a time)

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#83

Post by supernova87a »

Well, of course this is because everyone who had weeks/months of fines built up on overdue books is taking the opportunity to turn them in while they can with no penalty.

Whether a library that starts with a no-fine policy can sustain that is highly doubtful. What are we going to resort to, the librarian calling each borrower and asking nicely?

Maybe we should eliminate penalties for everything in life, because they're discriminatory or inequitable towards people who can't afford them. Remove speeding tickets, late fees for unpaid taxes, etc.

In fact, we should just remove prices for everything -- prices tend to reduce access to everything and make things inequitable!

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#84

Post by vanniv »

rhizome wrote: post #76
BoorishBears wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how do you explain self-checkout which is not watched nearly as carefully? It's not a binary outcome. Self-checkout increases shrinkage, of course there are people who steal when not watched as carefully. But the vast majority of people walking in a store are not stopped from stealing because of the odds of being caught. Like, stores would literally not work if that was the case. Margins these stores have a razor…

> Self-checkout increases shrinkage If this is true, and I'm not sure it is, I bet the money they lose to theft is dwarfed by the amount they save by laying off most of their checkers.

self-checkout does somewhat increase shrinkage. Many stores (Target, for one) combat this by having a screen right on the self-checkout machine that shows the camera footage of you checking out, to remind you that you're being watched even if there isn't a human right there doing the watching.

But yeah, the increase in theft is probably a lot less than the savings from having to pay more checkers (since they typically can have one observer per 4-6 self-checkout kiosks)

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#85

Post by robbrown451 »

BoorishBears wrote: post #71
leosarev wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cashier apparently is here because is the substantial amount of people, who will steal if not watched, but won't take a risk of cashier will confront them or will call a police.

So how do you explain self-checkout which is not watched nearly as carefully? It's not a binary outcome. Self-checkout increases shrinkage, of course there are people who steal when not watched as carefully. But the vast majority of people walking in a store are not stopped from stealing because of the odds of being caught. Like, stores would literally not work if that was the case. Margins these stores have a razor…

This might work better for a library than a for-profit institution like a grocery store.

I imagine that self checkout doesn't get all that many cheaters because people think there are cameras, and being busted for stealing is a pretty humiliating big deal most people wouldn't want to risk, even if the risk is small.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#86

Post by swimfar »

reaperducer wrote: post #30
siruncledrew wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a good idea in theory. Receive books in the mail, return books in the mail. I imagine the main cost-factor is size/weight of the books. The post office having to deliver an encyclopedia would be more costly than delivering a small paperback. Maybe there's a way to work around that. It would at least encourage the readership of physical books (and maybe books in general). I don't go to to the library either, and…

I imagine the main cost-factor is size/weight of the books. Not really. Fourth class mail used to be called "book rate." It's slow, but it's super cheap, and was established in 1879 to encourage reading and literacy. I think a better innovation would be for one of the SV "tech" delivery companies to team up with local libraries to deliver and retrieve books from people in their offices.

Book rate is not what it costs the USPS to ship books, it's what it costs for an individual to ship books. So it's still possible that it's too expensive to make sense.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#87

Post by wazoox »

There are many similar cases: when some school started fining late parents, more parents came in even later (because, after all, they paid to get their children cared for, so why bother?). It's a well known effect. Fines often reduce the feeling of responsibility.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#88

Post by PeterisP »

Our local library has a monthly "amnesty day" where you can return books and get new ones with the late fees waived. So if the fees are a problem for you, you come on that particular day; but if you're just late and want a different book now, then you pay a dollar or so.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#89

Post by BoorishBears »

rhizome wrote: post #76
BoorishBears wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how do you explain self-checkout which is not watched nearly as carefully? It's not a binary outcome. Self-checkout increases shrinkage, of course there are people who steal when not watched as carefully. But the vast majority of people walking in a store are not stopped from stealing because of the odds of being caught. Like, stores would literally not work if that was the case. Margins these stores have a razor…

> Self-checkout increases shrinkage If this is true, and I'm not sure it is, I bet the money they lose to theft is dwarfed by the amount they save by laying off most of their checkers.

Not only is it true, self-checkout machines can be adjusted to account for expected shrinkage.

In one neighborhood the machine can be configured to be extremely sensitive to weight and quick to give loud warnings as soon as a mismatch occurs, in another it can be configured for easier use, by ignoring single weight mismatches and allowing voiding of cheaper items without employee oversight

ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/software/retail/marketing/pdf/sco/RTE03002-USEN-00.pdf

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330214157_SELF-CHEC...

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#90

Post by Moru »

mumblemumble wrote: post #36
ComputerGuru wrote: post #3

I honestly think it is the novelty of suddenly not having fines rather than the actual not having of fines. IMHO (most) people don’t not return books when they’re a day or a week late because of fines. Ultimately, I believe it’s too early to draw any conclusions beyond observing the number of books returned for now . It will certainly be interesting to see where the steady state will wind up, though. (I’m a CPL membe…

All this is fair, but, at the same time, Chicago is far from the first library system to do this. It's just the largest. And it seems quite likely that it'll work out in Chicago the same way it has elsewhere. Other libraries are seeing that the benefits last. You're maybe minimizing what the fines can amount to. As a parent of small children, I can say from experience that a load of books from the children's library,…

With us the kids have their own account and they don't pay any late fees, only if the book is completely lost. Offcourse it helps that all public schools have a branch of the state library so they can return books by themselves.
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