A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code? • Hacker News Board

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#81

Post by jcims » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 5:30 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #62

czbond wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I - disagree here. My CompSci background gets me called in to deal with the hard stuff that others skip bc the theoretical parts of CS are not present. As mentioned in a further comment below - I can understand why code is slow (eg: BigO for cpu or memory), what structures and algorithms to use in different scenarios (Data Structures & algos), how things are working (Computer Architecture, Programming Languages [theo…

I’ll agree with your disagree. Other than APCS in high school, and some discrete math and number theory in college, I learned to program myself. By reading a lot I picked up most of the things on your list above. But where I really perceive my limitations from lack of formal education is where math comes into play. I get the gist of how cryptography or machine learning works, but I don’t think I’d be able to work in…

Do you think most people with a CS degree retain sufficient skills in this area to be effective? Maybe PhDs.

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#82

Post by jcims » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 5:35 AM UTC

czbond wrote: post #39

goranb wrote: post #11

I'm currently pursuing my CS degree after a couple of decades working as a programmer. The big difference is that you will miss "why" and learn mostly "how", unless you have a very inquisitive mind. On the other hand, not everybody can afford years of no income or crippling debt.

I agree with you; I have a CS degree, and when I work with those who learned the programming mechanics (aka making code work) - are often skipped other topics that came in handy for me making other decisions. I can understand why code is slow (eg: BigO for cpu or memory), what structures and algorithms to use in different scenarios (Data Structures & algos), how things are working (Computer Architecture, Programming…

Is there any part of a CS degree that educates students on how networks operate or what a protocol looks like on a wire? Most of the new grads I work with seem to think of all of that as a black box and are completely stuck when things aren’t working.

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#83

Post by honkycat » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 6:00 AM UTC

People REALLY hate college degrees on this site. I think my degree was a great decision.

I've met a few decent self-taught programmers. Most are awful. Over and over again the bootcamp grads and people who have never attended school end up being the worst performers on my team.

A LOT of the people I have worked with who do not have degrees have bad attitudes and are hyper-vigilant about "no degree" microaggressions.

I use the stuff I learned in university all the time. I didn't go deeply into debt to attend a private university, instead I worked during the day and went to school at night.

There is such a massive glut of people trying to get into the entry level programmer jobs. It's an easy decision for me: Throw the people who do not have a 4 year degree or relevant work experience into the trash. I would assume that a LOT of other people are doing this.

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#84

Post by hvasilev » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 6:01 AM UTC

The author does not provide any reason why these skills cannot be learnt outside of an academic environment. It is possible to develop alone your programming skills to an extent where you can get hired as a junior developer. The rest can be learnt in the workplace.

Curiously one of the best developers that I have pleasure of knowing don't have any degrees. If I could go back in time I would have never wasted 4 years of my life going to a university for a CS degree.

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#85

Post by mathgladiator » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 6:02 AM UTC

BeetleB wrote: post #74

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The courses you list are mostly very necessary for well-rounded knowledge and ability to synthesize research and share knowledge (like in a team project), and doesn’t seem to be a high course load. Putting it in the first two years also suggests the later years allow you to be more specialized on CS. Linear algebra, discrete math & probability really are needed all the time.

> The courses you list are mostly very necessary for well-rounded knowledge and ability to synthesize research and share knowledge (like in a team project), I can only repeat what I said: Look - I think I gained quite a bit from the well rounded education I got. And my general advice is that people should go for it. However, I also have the reality of experience: Most of my peers who have degrees are poor at writing,…

To add, as much as I love university... it was mostly a waste of time for me. Paradoxically, the humanities are now more interesting because I am older and seeking to understand what the fuck is reality.

I'm of the opinion we need to split school in a way where young people focus first on how to be useful, then be useful for a period of time. From here, humanities are more relevant once one has enough wealth and time to appreciate it.

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#86

Post by mathgladiator » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 6:11 AM UTC

honkycat wrote: post #83

People REALLY hate college degrees on this site. I think my degree was a great decision. I've met a few decent self-taught programmers. Most are awful. Over and over again the bootcamp grads and people who have never attended school end up being the worst performers on my team. A LOT of the people I have worked with who do not have degrees have bad attitudes and are hyper-vigilant about "no degree" microaggressions.…

I think a bunch depends on how people used their time in university. The typical college graduate has an advantage over the typical bootcamper. At the extremes is where it doesnt really matter because the fundamental driver was different. People focused on the job will always yield to those that are driven intrinsically (and, in a way perpetually suffer those that are intrinsically motivated as they are the only ones inventing things)

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#87

Post by NeedMoreTea » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 6:12 AM UTC

honkycat wrote: post #83

People REALLY hate college degrees on this site. I think my degree was a great decision. I've met a few decent self-taught programmers. Most are awful. Over and over again the bootcamp grads and people who have never attended school end up being the worst performers on my team. A LOT of the people I have worked with who do not have degrees have bad attitudes and are hyper-vigilant about "no degree" microaggressions.…

A lot of the people I have worked with over my thirty years working, who do have degrees, frequently come across as blinkered know-it-alls because as they have a CS degree they therefore know everything. A fair selection of whom were canned as despite great degree grade they could do little beyond make tea in the real world. The reality is just the same - most people with degrees are awful.

I take issue with bootcamp being self taught - they are not remotely the same thing at all. I would probably be more suspicious of bootcamp grads than anything else - from experience of various commercial training over the years. Someone truly self taught - rather than winging it - is approaching it a very different way.

Being old, most of the seniors in my early career had no CS degree or even degree at all. A fair selection of whom could give anyone in today's world a run for their money.

The TL;DR of which is, of course, most applicants regardless of background will be pretty dire... Which is why hiring remains non-trivial.

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#88

Post by mathgladiator » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 6:13 AM UTC

pgcj_poster wrote: post #56

donatj wrote: post #31

Talking with co-workers who completed 4 year CS degrees, I feel like I got a much better value out of my now defunct 2 year trade school. Mind you this was 15 years ago, but I came out of it with a decent enough working knowledge of C, C++, VB.Net and Java - and basic understanding of SQL, PLScheme and functional. On top of that there was a solid year of data structure class. Trade schools have been largely demonized…

> Trade schools have been largely demonized and shut down in the last couple years, I didn't know this and I find it incredibly surprising. I've literally never heard anyone say anything bad about trade school ever. In fact, I almost always hear about it in contrast with college, which is said to be an expensive waste of time that turns kids into gay communists.

It depends a lot on the school and parents. I had considered a trade school since I like to build shit, but i was pushed away from it.

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#89

Post by Supermancho » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 6:15 AM UTC

dangus wrote: post #59

newguy1234 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my experience, if people don't have the discipline to self-study some specific topic then they'll have a hard time in CS. The problem is CS is constantly changing and you need to be routinely upgrading your skills as time progresses to stay competitive in the marketplace. I would even go as far as saying that being able to self-study on your own is an essential life skill, up there with learning how to read/writ…

The whole “constantly changing” thing is not true when it comes to computer science theory. What you are talking about is essentially programming as a trade. That’s not what a CS degree or any degree is for, really. The best programmers have a deep understanding of how computer software works.

> The best programmers have a deep understanding of how computer software works.

That's a value judgement that is not reflected in the market, fwiw.

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#90

Post by Supermancho » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 6:16 AM UTC

detail-oriented wrote: post #20

lowercased wrote: post #9

"College degrees far outweigh teaching yourself to code (Or coding bootcamps), as they provide you more skills than simply knowing how to code." But the majority of the skills listed are not intrinsic to computers, computer science, or software at all. "There are many skills that Developers now require besides just coding. They need time management skills, organisational skills, people skills, translating skills, neg…

Totally agree with your last statement. I've fired more CS degree programmers than self learners.

Same here. There are comments further down, which also assert this. This is probably because there are more developers in the market (overall) that have degrees than not, along with a lack of passion to expand their skills.