Rock climbing and the economics of innovation • Hacker News Board

Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#81

Post by aketchum » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 12:48 AM UTC

watwut wrote: post #66

justinator wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno, climbing gear isn't all that expensive and there's not THAT much gear you need - you can fit it all in a backpack, you know. I see it more that adult life is delayed, since there's the opportunity and privilege to delay it. It's kinda rich kids acting like their poor kids, 'cause that's kind of a cool thing to do. Not everyone of course, but those $100,000 tricked out vans don't pay for themselves. Lots of c…

> I dunno, climbing gear isn't all that expensive and there's not THAT much gear you need - you can fit it all in a backpack, you know. Wut? Not expensive compared to what exactly? You know climbers are leaving material behind in mountains and trips themselves are expensive? Why would "fit into backpack" be an argument for why something is cheap?

what materials do are you thinking about when saying climbers leave things? If you do it correctly you leave with all the gear you came with

Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#82

Post by scarecrowbob » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 1:08 AM UTC

patejam wrote: post #80

majos wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But climbing’s a lot cheaper than those things. If you’re in a midsize city you can get an unlimited gym membership for maybe $50 per month. Shoes, generously will run you $200 per year. That’s $800 per year all-in. The equipment alone, even without the travel or membership expenses, seems higher for the other hobbies listed.

I agree with you as far as startup costs go. But your example is only if you only boulder indoors. Costs add up quickly if you want to move outdoors and want the flexibility to do a variety of climbs. You can easily have a couple thousand dollars in gear. Harness $70 Belay device $20-150 Rope $150+ (possibly multiple) Quickdraws $10-14 each, you probably want a dozen or so. Some slings Some carabiners That'll get you…

Yes and no. You can go a long time with very little gear.

I have a pretty nice trad rack, but most of the time I could get by with shoes, harness, belay device, etc. just because I'm typically climbing with other folks.

If you're learning to climb, then you really don't need the equipment beyond personal stuff at all because your partners will have it.

Like, I haven't had to use my rack for about the last 3 months just because the guy I was climbing with liked his better.

Not to mention that I have cams in my rack from the 90s... a lot of this stuff lasts a very long time and has a reasonable used market.

IME, it is way cheaper than, say, lift-serviced skiing or golfing.

It's like anything else, you could spend a lot. You could also live in your car and still afford to do this stuff.

Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#83

Post by hnaccy » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 1:39 AM UTC

perfect_wave wrote: post #72

watwut wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I dunno, climbing gear isn't all that expensive and there's not THAT much gear you need - you can fit it all in a backpack, you know. Wut? Not expensive compared to what exactly? You know climbers are leaving material behind in mountains and trips themselves are expensive? Why would "fit into backpack" be an argument for why something is cheap?

To be honest he's not wrong. I bought my trad rack (widgets that go in cracks and carabiners for them) for around $2,000. Rope, shoes, helmet, harness, backpacks, etc on top of that is probably another $2,000 at most. Camping gear is another ~$1,000. Most of this stuff (aside from the rope) will last for many years. Occasionally I'll lose a cam out climbing which is $50-80 to replace, but only happens a few times a s…

Spending 5k on a sport is expensive for most people.

Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#84

Post by nicpottier » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 1:52 AM UTC

justinator wrote: post #51

nlfwhulsdhouv wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rock climbing has a very long and storied history of climbers living on absolute scraps to get by, just so they can climb more. This persists in the culture to this day. Yvonne Chouinard, depicted in the article, was one of those climbers. He tells stories of eating catfood and stealing leftovers from the hotels in Yosemite Valley to survive. While you're right that making money helps people live an easier life more…

I think the myth of the dirtbagger is a little played out. It makes for great marketing though. Post War America was a time of relative easy living, especially if you were born in America, white, and a man (and were dodging the draft, too!)

I still have climber friends that dumpster dive for basically all their groceries. Yes they still have (seasonal) jobs, but they save every last penny using such antics so they can climb / recreate more.

So no, I don't think it is played out at all.

Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#85

Post by mgfist » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 1:55 AM UTC

ericmcer wrote: post #69

justinator wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the myth of the dirtbagger is a little played out. It makes for great marketing though. Post War America was a time of relative easy living, especially if you were born in America, white, and a man (and were dodging the draft, too!)

It is a much different world now, My friends who did the dirtbag life are now finding their hens coming home to roost in a major way as they hit their late 20s/early 30s. If you don't have wealthy parents or connections it is going to be very difficult for someone with no degree and little work experience to catch a break at that age. The freewheeling artist/hippy lifestyle of that time period was probably partially…

It's funny because the economy is currently in one of the longest bull runs ever, and yet the above is no where near possible. The income inequality today is staggering.

Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#86

Post by ladberg » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 2:48 AM UTC

shantly wrote: post #21

hogFeast wrote: post #13

Has anyone else found that people who are really into rock climbing always feel the need to bring climbing up?

It the new skiing. Or maybe sailing and golfing, to a smaller extent. A thing well-off professionals go do (and yes, not just them, same as the other things) then come back and talk about.

I don't think it's particularly a sport for well-off professionals at all. It just happens that most of the people we interact with in SF/SV are well-off professionals, so those are the climbers you know. If you go a different part of the country/world, you'll probably find climbers of way different demographics.

Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#87

Post by patejam » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 4:22 AM UTC

aketchum wrote: post #81

watwut wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I dunno, climbing gear isn't all that expensive and there's not THAT much gear you need - you can fit it all in a backpack, you know. Wut? Not expensive compared to what exactly? You know climbers are leaving material behind in mountains and trips themselves are expensive? Why would "fit into backpack" be an argument for why something is cheap?

what materials do are you thinking about when saying climbers leave things? If you do it correctly you leave with all the gear you came with

Not always.

Sometimes you have to sling a tree or rock in order to rappel. Sometimes gear gets stuck and you have to move on. Sometimes you drop gear by accident.

Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#88

Post by stickfigure » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 5:51 AM UTC

Fricken wrote: post #53

ezoe wrote: post #22

The very interesting trend right now is there are so many new climbing shoes vendors start appearing within a couple of years. I suspect it's because the Olympic accepted free climbing. I was skeptical at first on these freshly new shoes vendors, but when I tried out their products, it's on-par quality with the existing vendors. Even more, often time, these newcomers has far durable product than the traditional vendo…

I think it's interesting the way climbing apparel makers have gone on to assume such a dominant presence in retail. I recall going into mountaineering shops in the mid 90s when North Face and Arc'teryx were boutique manufacturers that only catered to hardcore alpinists and climbers. Now, if you go to the mall on a cold day every second yuppie is wearing a jacket from one of the big climbing apparel retailers. Initial…

climbing apparel makers have gone on to assume such a dominant presence in retail

This isn't because the mass market started buying climbing apparel; it's because North Face, Columbia, Patagonia, decided to leverage their brand into the mainstream. You can now buy all manner of cotton citywear with a cool outdoorsy chic from any of these brands, and they're probably making 10X more money. But I wouldn't assume folks are buying more actual climbing apparel.

Whether this dilutes the brands long-term is something we'll see in another decade or two.

Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#89

Post by scarejunba » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 6:28 AM UTC

peterwwillis wrote: post #44

hogFeast wrote: post #13

Has anyone else found that people who are really into rock climbing always feel the need to bring climbing up?

Hey bro, do you lift, bro? What are you at? Oh me, my 1rm dead is 375, bench 275, no belt, no gloves. Hey bro, do you do intermittent fasting? Yeah I do keto too, I use a 24-48 cleanse, I'm in ketosis for twice as long now. Hey bro, do you climb? Just redpointed a V7, up to 5.11c's on the wall after tearing a ligament on a wicked crimpy dyno. Yeah I'll be at Hueco the next two weeks. Hey bro, do you code? Me, I write…

In SF you will absolutely hear multiple of these things from the same person haha. I love it.

Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#90

Post by pauljurczak » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 8:13 AM UTC

ezoe wrote: post #22

The very interesting trend right now is there are so many new climbing shoes vendors start appearing within a couple of years. I suspect it's because the Olympic accepted free climbing. I was skeptical at first on these freshly new shoes vendors, but when I tried out their products, it's on-par quality with the existing vendors. Even more, often time, these newcomers has far durable product than the traditional vendo…

Use of water-based adhesives is one of the factors in sport shoes coming apart prematurely, especially in humid climate. It is dictated by environmental concerns. Shoes with European Ecolabel have strict limits on use of organic solvents in manufacturing.