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Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

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Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#81
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wait until you find out how far the pay of those rich assholes goes when you spread it around! Like by raising wages? How else would you spread it around? > That some people make more - sometimes substantially more - isn't always one of them. Read marx. Or chomsky.

Yes, like raising wages. Big piles of money tend to turn into surprisingly small ones when spread out across big piles of people. You'll have to pardon me if I'm reluctant to take my economics lessons from a linguist.

> You'll have to pardon me if I'm reluctant to take my economics lessons from a linguist.

Your loss, not mine!

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#82
To those reading the article from America: whatever is mentioned here about Europe or unions, please note that Switzerland is a planet on its own in Europe,with completely different mentality,laws and is hardly comparable with any other country. Also, the entire tech sector in there is more of a high end because of the costs.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#83
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This should not be grayed, but HN is full of bootlickers.

My experience is that HN often aligns with more Libertarian ideologies in the comment section.

I upvoted your comment, but only because I think it agrees with the person you're replying to.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure it makes sense for the software industry. Why not? Such a vague claim needs substantiation.

It will likely stifle my salary, and the salaries of a lot of high earning swes. Or not. Curious what others think.

It will likely stifle my salary, and the salaries of a lot of high earning swes.

Like it does in Hollywood? Oh no wait, everyone from the stars to the extras is in a Union!

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real libertarians, or the "privatize tyranny" crowd?

I’ve seen people downvoted for highlighting that “libertarian” was a term invented in the context of anarchist and socialist struggle before being co-opted by the right, so I’m going to go with the latter...

There are a lot of techies on HN with no sense of history. I blame the "STEM uber alles" educational agenda we've been pushing in the US ever since Sputnik.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#86
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many unionized companies pay higher salaries than Google?

This is a trick question in so many ways. Almost every single company in the country pays less than Google. So you could say the same about any non-unionized company too. If unions arose out of poor working conditions then it probably follows that salaries for that work were poor. Just because you make a lot of money, doesn't mean you're not being underpaid or exploited. These software companies aren't some of the mo…

> Just because you make a lot of money, doesn't mean you're not being underpaid or exploited.

If you are a Google engineer, you can go work for literally anyone else if you feel you are underpaid and exploited. It isn’t like Google is the only buyer of labor in that market. Some chicken processing plant in Iowa — that might be a different conversation, but this is Google. If you feel you are underpaid, then leave. Go work for Netflix, I hear they pay a lot. Don’t like Netflix? Try Apple, LinkedIn, or start your own company. Plenty of money out there for an “ex-Google engineer” with an idea.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#87
post #74
post #35

Call me a cynic, but Europe isn't the USA. There are a lot of countries in EU which have, IMO, better work culture and fairness of negotiation as the guiding philosophies behind the work. If Google did this in the USA, it wouldn't be seen as much. However, they have strong laws against this in EU, and this incident would not portray Google in favorable light, IMO. I also feel that it is high time engineers realized t…

Cynically, their response will be to grow offices elsewhere.

Cynically, the Swiss will respond "bite me". After all they still do have a pretty sweet tax-heaven setup, despite the scandals.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#88
post #43

I'm a SWE at Google, and as much as I love unions, I'm not sure it makes sense for the software industry. Further, the larger tech companies already have a concept of "levels" to ensure some sense of pay equality, we already get better benefits than you can get anywhere else in the states. Realistically, what more will unions accomplish at a place like Google? I'd love 6 weeks of paid vacation as much as anyone. I do…

> I'd love 6 weeks of paid vacation as much as anyone. I don't see us getting that. I'd love to make twice as much money. I don't see that happening. I'd love for promotions and hiring to be more fair / better, but I don't see how this accomplishes that (nor do I know anyway to improve it). Not at Google so I can't comment about them directly. Also very neutral on unions, so don't take this comment as my preference.…

[deleted]

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#89
post #43

I'm a SWE at Google, and as much as I love unions, I'm not sure it makes sense for the software industry. Further, the larger tech companies already have a concept of "levels" to ensure some sense of pay equality, we already get better benefits than you can get anywhere else in the states. Realistically, what more will unions accomplish at a place like Google? I'd love 6 weeks of paid vacation as much as anyone. I do…

> I'd love 6 weeks of paid vacation as much as anyone. I don't see us getting that. I'd love to make twice as much money. I don't see that happening. I'd love for promotions and hiring to be more fair / better, but I don't see how this accomplishes that (nor do I know anyway to improve it). Not at Google so I can't comment about them directly. Also very neutral on unions, so don't take this comment as my preference.…

I'm in the UK. Currently have 25 days of paid holidays + 8 bank holidays. I believe this is a bare minimum one needs in order to maintain straight head and not go mad. I appreciate that's not something most people get across the pond, however I do see absolutely zero reasons,why this couldn't be the case over there as well. However,many heads had to roll and tons of blood was spilled in most European countries for these things to become a norm.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#90
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many unionized companies pay higher salaries than Google?

This is a trick question in so many ways. Almost every single company in the country pays less than Google. So you could say the same about any non-unionized company too. If unions arose out of poor working conditions then it probably follows that salaries for that work were poor. Just because you make a lot of money, doesn't mean you're not being underpaid or exploited. These software companies aren't some of the mo…

You are attributing the profitability of software companies to what you think is the "underpaying" of its workers? And you think that unionization will lead to higher wages? I'm just trying to understand the argument.

If the software industry were to unionize, the union would want to collectively bargain for seniority-based job security rules and other schemes to prevent lower-paid new-hires (people not YET in the union) from taking work from existing union members. Other versions of this effect come in the form of union-imposed certification schemes in the trades, "tenure" rules in education, seniority precedence in picking hours in healthcare, etc. The net effect is that the experienced and powerful members make it hard for the young to get into the profession.

I have a problem with that, ideologically. But, in more practical terms: collective bargaining only works to increase wages when the counterparty has no other option. This works when you're talking about workers at the docks: the docks are not going anywhere, the ships need to be unloaded, and you can't exactly bus in some scabs and expect it to work out. With software, what do you think will happen if a union somehow manages, via Swiss law, to unionize one Google office? It's software. Google will leave and hire elsewhere.

This is exactly why Subaru and Toyota builds cars in the southern U.S. while Ford builds in Mexico, and why industries are flocking to non-union states, and why the people are going with them.

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