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James Gosling on Richard Stallman [video]

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Re: James Gosling on Richard Stallman [video]

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for posting that... Here's the core piece: > And then Stallman freaks and he gets a copy of my source code, does a whole lot of editing. He doesn't actually-- You know, he edits, like, almost all of the copyright headers, but he doesn't edit all of them and he only kind of thinly edits it and then he re-releases it as GNU Emacs. And then IBM and Digital Equipment pick that up and start distributing it. So thes…

And right after that Gosling describes how he did much the same thing with Wirth's pascal compiler! He thinks that's OK because there was no copyright notice attached.

He may be right. The law about copyright notices changed on 1978 Jan 1 [1], so if Wirth's compiler predated the change to US law...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Act_of_1976

Re: James Gosling on Richard Stallman [video]

#82
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an OSS nerd working in today's corporate culture, I can assure you that GPL is its own form of lock-in. I had to abandon some of my favorite tools when I left university.

> I had to abandon some of my favorite tools when I left university. Tools, or libraries? The distinction I'm making here is between code that gets distributed with the final product, and code that only runs on your machine or just internally in the corporate network. I can understand a company not wanting to intermix GPL code with proprietary code that is shipped to customers, but not being able to use GPL software…

When I was at Amazon we were forbidden from using any GPLv3/AGPL software, including recent versions of GCC and Emacs (there was a special exception for Linux).

Re: James Gosling on Richard Stallman [video]

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I had to abandon some of my favorite tools when I left university. Tools, or libraries? The distinction I'm making here is between code that gets distributed with the final product, and code that only runs on your machine or just internally in the corporate network. I can understand a company not wanting to intermix GPL code with proprietary code that is shipped to customers, but not being able to use GPL software…

When I was at Amazon we were forbidden from using any GPLv3/AGPL software, including recent versions of GCC and Emacs (there was a special exception for Linux).

That sounds horrible :(

Re: James Gosling on Richard Stallman [video]

#84
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I concluded I couldn't use it and had to replace it all Which happened over time. He used it as a starting point, replaced some important parts first and gradually rewrote everything. This took some time. Meanwhile the partial rewrite was being distributed. It's not a black-and-white story of theft versus clean rewrite. Also I don't recall Gosling Emacs having any license terms included with the code ... and I studi…

Google Cache, since jwz is re-directing that link, now. :-) https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:G9nZNd...

Or install an addon that clobbers the Referrer field. I use Smart Referrer and it's generally pretty good.

Re: James Gosling on Richard Stallman [video]

#85
This sounds quite damning and makes me reconsider Stallman's character. Nevertheless it's an account of only one party, which has to be also considered.

Dunno why people who were against RMS didn't try to argument with this instead innocuous Epstein comments.

Re: James Gosling on Richard Stallman [video]

#86
post #57

James Gosling is responsible for Java which supports cubicle hells where programmers are viewed as interchangeable spigots. Why do people without any intellect whatsoever talk about intellectual copyright? Hillarious.

Java is a decent enough programming language and, even if that wasn't true, this guy is not responsible for the "cubicle hells" you talk about. I don't know what kind of reasoning you applied here.

Re: James Gosling on Richard Stallman [video]

#87
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Learning great tools that aren’t under the GPL may leak to lock-in and pain in the future.

As an OSS nerd working in today's corporate culture, I can assure you that GPL is its own form of lock-in. I had to abandon some of my favorite tools when I left university.

Well, I have as part of my job duties scanned dependencies of source code to make sure it didn’t inadvertently include any GPL-licensed libraries.

The GPL does not control use, it controls distribution. So, using Emacs and GCC as one’s toolchain does not require a company’s code being made open source.

However, using a GPL licensed library “taints” any and all code which touches it. With the complex mazes of dependencies modern NPM/Node, Java/Maven, Python/Pip, and what not have, there’s a non-zero chance that some dependency of a dependency of a dependency is GPL code without the company knowing about it, which puts the company at risk of being sued if they make the code depend on that GPL library, no matter how indirectly.

Anything a GPL library touches in a bundled executable taints the entire code, forcing it all to be open source.

This is a serious problems for companies selling software (including hardware that uses embedded software). There are commercial products which exist to make sure code is not GPL-tainted.

Re: James Gosling on Richard Stallman [video]

#88
post #71

> I found these two guys who ran this little company called Unipress, it was literally two guys in a garage, and I said, "Look, this needs to be free for universities and not ridiculous for everybody else." Gosling sold them Gosling emacs. Before that he apparently "distributed it freely with no copyright notice." Although Gosling wrote Gosling Emacs, it was based on the plans he and Richard Stallman had developed fo…

A copyright notice is not required for copyright; by default in the US, everything copyrightable is copyrighted unless it comes with a public domain notice. If there's no license attached, or no agreement somewhere, then you do not have legal right to redistribute someone else's work, even if they gave it to you freely. Gosling was perfectly within his rights to sell gosemacs to Unipress (though note that Gosling nev…

> A copyright notice is not required for copyright; by default in the US, everything copyrightable is copyrighted unless it comes with a public domain notice.

This did not become law until 1989. https://www.sunsteinlaw.com/copyright-flowchart (Stallman started work with Steele on EMACS in 1976, and the dispute happened in 1985.) Until that point, US copyright law protected the public from copyright abuse with strict notice, registration, and renewal requirements, which were eliminated in order to join the Berne Convention. [This paragraph has been edited to correct egregious errors]

Moreover, until 1980, it wasn't clear that software was copyrightable at all — the analogy to printed books is rather weak. Congress updated the law in 1980, although unfortunately did not require the publication of source code to gain the monopolies granted by copyright, an omission which is likely to cost us much of the intellectual history of the late 20th and early 21st centuries, as source code is lost long before it passes into the public domain. Passage into the public domain is the essential step that fulfills the copyright bargain with the public: a limited-time monopoly in exchange for the promotion of progress in "science" (theoretical knowledge) and the "useful arts" (practical knowledge), as the US Constitution explains. So, much of the current practice of software copyright is a fraud — the public suffers the cost of the copyright holders' limited-time monopoly, but then are cheated out of the benefit of an expanded public domain.

Consider, too, that we're talking about events that happened in 1981–5, in communities that were struggling to accommodate the impact of these radical new intellectual enclosures that destroyed the rights they had traditionally enjoyed, comparable to the enclosure laws that eliminated common grazing grounds in England before the Industrial Revolution.

> Gosling was perfectly within his rights to sell gosemacs to Unipress

This is not clear; quite aside from the question of whether Gosmacs was a derivative work of PDP-10 EMACS (it was not, under current caselaw, but that caselaw didn't exist in 1985), Gosmacs of course included contributions from other people, who presumably did not assign copyright to Gosling; they may not even have been aware there was anything to assign.

> I really don't get how you're coming at Gosling so hard...he's clearly uncomfortable talking about the topic

Entirely independent from the question of copyright notices, Gosling's account is false and defamatory, and omits the crucial background fact that the program he sold to Unipress was an imitation of a program Stallman had devoted the last seven years of his life to, and the subsequent fact that three months after the initial release of GNU Emacs, Stallman had removed the disputed code. It's unsurprising that he would be uncomfortable lying. Most people are.

Re: James Gosling on Richard Stallman [video]

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I had to abandon some of my favorite tools when I left university. Tools, or libraries? The distinction I'm making here is between code that gets distributed with the final product, and code that only runs on your machine or just internally in the corporate network. I can understand a company not wanting to intermix GPL code with proprietary code that is shipped to customers, but not being able to use GPL software…

When I was at Amazon we were forbidden from using any GPLv3/AGPL software, including recent versions of GCC and Emacs (there was a special exception for Linux).

Linux is GPLv2, so it would have been okay because of that I'm guessing.
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