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Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

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Re: Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

#81

Post by RHSeeger »

esotericn wrote: post #76
RHSeeger wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So don't take out a mortgage that you can't afford to pay off. Are you implying that you shouldn't take out a mortgage that you can't pay off without a job? That makes no sense at all. I'll admit you shouldn't take out a mortgage that you will default on if you're out of work for 1 month, but plenty of people wind up out of work for longer periods of time.

I'm saying that you should aim to not get caught up in a lifestyle in which you significantly increase the chance that you will feel forced to do bad things in the future to maintain it. I won't give hard figures because really this mortgage example is just one of many. It's a basic principles thing. Poor people living hand to mouth have no choice. A qualified software developer really does. If you mortgage yourself…

> Anyone can increase their lifestyle to meet their income, pile up debts and then claim they just have to do whatever bossman says because otherwise it'll all unravel.

And anyone can go from doing well to living in their car.

When I was younger, I was doing well for myself. I wasn't in debt, I rented (no mortgage), happily newly married. And then the economy dropped out from under me and I lost everything. My job, all my savings, etc. We had less than a month of (cheap) rent left in the bank. Eventually, my wife and I had to move so she could take a job further away. She was still in grad school and had to travel 90 minutes each way to meet with people at the school. That was because I couldn't find a job that would support us (after over a year of looking). We didn't have to compromise our morals, but we did have to make a decision that sucked for us. Because shitty things happen.

My family and I are back in a good place now. But I recognize that somethings things fall apart no matter how well you plan, and I don't judge people based on the decisions that felt they had to make at such times. I may disagree with their decisions, but I don't believe they are bad people because of them.

If you get a chance, watch The Wave. It's a good example of how sometimes even normal "not bad" people can wind up making bad decisions.

Re: Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

#82

Post by esotericn »

RHSeeger wrote: post #81
esotericn wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm saying that you should aim to not get caught up in a lifestyle in which you significantly increase the chance that you will feel forced to do bad things in the future to maintain it. I won't give hard figures because really this mortgage example is just one of many. It's a basic principles thing. Poor people living hand to mouth have no choice. A qualified software developer really does. If you mortgage yourself…

> Anyone can increase their lifestyle to meet their income, pile up debts and then claim they just have to do whatever bossman says because otherwise it'll all unravel. And anyone can go from doing well to living in their car. When I was younger, I was doing well for myself. I wasn't in debt, I rented (no mortgage), happily newly married. And then the economy dropped out from under me and I lost everything. My job, a…

Sure. I think we mostly see eye to eye on this FWIW.

I'm glad you found your way through what sounds like a tough situation.

Re: Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

#83

Post by jlgaddis »

bigiain wrote: post #22
sveme wrote: post #6

I'm always wondering how the software developers of FinFisher justify working for such shady players like Turkey and other middle east authoritarian regimes. Are they heading home to family and kids after destroying the remnants of the turkish democracy and tell themselves "twas a good day"?

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." -- Upton Sinclair

Can we please stop spouting this quote all over the place (especially when it isn't even applicable)?

You can believe that the folks working at FinFisher understand very well exactly what they are doing. Their salary, however, has simply caused them to ignore it.

Everyone has a price.

Re: Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

#84

Post by throAwei99 »

sveme wrote: post #6

I'm always wondering how the software developers of FinFisher justify working for such shady players like Turkey and other middle east authoritarian regimes. Are they heading home to family and kids after destroying the remnants of the turkish democracy and tell themselves "twas a good day"?

throw away just post once account.

Former developer working on FinFisher.

Note, I am only talking about my motivations and experiences. This was about 10 years ago and I left after about 18 months. Today it is likely a completely different place (e.g. only a few names in the suit sound familiar).

Why did I start there?

I already knew a lot of the current employees from previous work and remembered them as competent no nonsense senior developers. The job was pitched to me as working on software used by law enforcement against organized crime, terrorism and child abuser rings. Additionally the VC founded Startup I was currently working for imploded, I was fed up with the BS prevalent in the German VC founded Startup World, and my particular skill set was basically unemployable during that time for most other employers in Munich (mostly Scala and Objective-C). Gamma didn‘t hire people outside of their current employees network.

Why did I stay there? The work environment was as close to zero bullshit as you can probably get to. During my time there were zero pointless meetings, the total meeting time during the 18 months I stayed there was less than 3h (I actually measured them once I realized how few and short our meetings were), no internal politics I could perceive. Feedback of developers was taken seriously, you had decent offices, good equipment and could focus on getting your work done in a way that since then no other employer came close to providing.

Other (not all) colleagues actually started out on the „hactivist“ , were - as far as I could See - highly competent software developers specializing in IT security without a formal CS or related degree, that probably also made it difficult for them to find other work suitable at that time. Pay was good, not exceptional.

Why did I leave? I handed in my resignation shortly after Gamma appeared in the news the first time and it became apparent that sales was focusing more on governments that I personally do not consider as a „Rechtsstaat“ and less on fighting organized crime or child abusers.

Of course I could have known earlier/looked harder in the first place (I do not remember potential customers being keep a secret by sales) and to be honest this might be just the reason I tell myself, because after about 9 months or so I started to become excruciatingly bored by my day to day work... so this might have been the true reason and the news reports just the straw the broke the camels back. But I guess I‘ll never know.

Again it is roundabout 10 years since I worked there and this is just an account of my Personal experience, not „the truth about Gamma“

Re: Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

#85

Post by Faark »

notlukesky wrote: post #45
sveme wrote: post #6

I'm always wondering how the software developers of FinFisher justify working for such shady players like Turkey and other middle east authoritarian regimes. Are they heading home to family and kids after destroying the remnants of the turkish democracy and tell themselves "twas a good day"?

Is Germany an authoritarian regime when it tries to silence journalists and charge them with treason when they expose mass surveillance covering communications, Facebook and Twitter chats etc...?? https://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/10/treason_case_agains...

Kind of funny how your link demonstrates a reasonably functioning justice system while you try using it to paint Germany as authoritarian regime.

The case was dropped and the prosecutor forced to retired. Sure, would have been better to never have happened, but I don't see any system ever not having some shitty humans.

Re: Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

#86

Post by [deleted] »

sgift wrote: post #17
sveme wrote: post #6

I'm always wondering how the software developers of FinFisher justify working for such shady players like Turkey and other middle east authoritarian regimes. Are they heading home to family and kids after destroying the remnants of the turkish democracy and tell themselves "twas a good day"?

How do people justify working for any controversial company or authority? If there's one thing humans are good at it's rationalizing bad behavior as good or at least acceptable behavior.

[deleted]

Re: Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

#87

Post by jammygit »

sveme wrote: post #6

I'm always wondering how the software developers of FinFisher justify working for such shady players like Turkey and other middle east authoritarian regimes. Are they heading home to family and kids after destroying the remnants of the turkish democracy and tell themselves "twas a good day"?

Google tried to do worse with dragonfly and employees stood up. That made me feel nice

Re: Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

#88

Post by harimau777 »

esotericn wrote: post #65
RHSeeger wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're making this a little more black and white than it really is. How about a) Take the one job you've been offered right now, in your location, doing evil things b) fail to cover your mortgage payment this month and your house is foreclosed on. That choice is a lot more likely than just "you die". And the choice between bending your morals and losing your house is still a hard one. _(I don't know how mortg…

So don't take out a mortgage that you can't afford to pay off. It has the potential to make you a slave, as you illustrate in your example. These things don't just happen. If you stand up for what you believe in then perhaps you get fewer toys. It is how it is. I'd rather be poor and stand up for what I believe in than rich and a dickhead. YMMV. The fact that someone has sunk costs does not give them a pass.

I don't know if its the same in Germany, but in America very few people can afford to buy a home with cash.

Re: Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

#89

Post by kuerbel »

wolfgke wrote: post #79
kuerbel wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say for most jobs you are overqualified and people are afraid you would be bored after some time. If I were you I'd apply at an institute like the DFKI, I'm sure they would be glad to have you and provide you with a good challenge. The things recruiters told you ("not sufficiently pragmatic" or that you belong in academia)... they didn't tell you this to talk down to you but to give you hints.

> The things recruiters told you ("not sufficiently pragmatic" or that you belong in academia)... they didn't tell you this to talk down to you but to give you hints. I would have loved to stay in academia. The problem, why I left academia is the infamous Wissenschaftszeitvertragsgesetz, which gives you an employment ban on temporary contracts in academia after 6+6 years. Since nearly every employment contract in sci…

I think you can stay longer if your position is paid for by a private party instead of publicly funded. That could very well be the case at an institute. Maybe reach out to them, best a professor and explain your situation.

Link in german:

https://www.forschung-und-lehre.de/die-zehn-haeufigsten-irrt...

Nr 3

Re: Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

#90

Post by SI_Rob »

jlgaddis wrote: post #83
bigiain wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." -- Upton Sinclair

Can we please stop spouting this quote all over the place (especially when it isn't even applicable)? You can believe that the folks working at FinFisher understand very well exactly what they are doing. Their salary, however, has simply caused them to ignore it. Everyone has a price.

I totally agree that this quote is almost too economic for its own good and that as a consequence, overexposure has brought it to the threshold of fatal banality.

However, OP didn't misapply it in this case. Rather, it looks like you may be making the very same point with plain language that the quote makes with sarcastic irony.

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