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No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

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Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#81

Post by XorNot »

somebodythere wrote: post #42
mjevans wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if something like an MRI could allow medical professionals or diagnostic systems to automatically categorize this non-invasively? When we reach a world where everyone has more star trek level medical care then a true survey of the population may allow for everyone to have improved lives.

Perhaps. I'm a little concerned that if this approach is used for diagnostics that it becomes another form of gatekeeping. (i.e. someone is transgender but denied treatment because their brain scans come up as cis.)

There's a dark side of everything, but there are people who believe they want to transition who then find out it doesn't help when they do. Being able to diagnostically assess the likelihood that it's the correct treatment would be good for everyone.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#83

Post by cjbprime »

eduren wrote: post #35
danharaj wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you overlook the part about finger digit ratios, which are a proxy for testosterone exposure during development?

Ah, it seems I did overlook the significance of that part. My apologies.

Kudos for an extremely humble reply! I think you might still have a good point, though. :)

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#84

Post by anon1m0us »

It's amazing that something so sexist could have been suggested without backlash.

Imagine if studies indicated that low testosterone limited or in some way hindered another desirable human capability. People have been fired for it and reputations ruined.

Suggesting men are emotionally stunted. Oh that's fine.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#85

Post by shard972 »

sverona wrote: post #54
TheOperator wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Tend to resemble that of the gender that they identify as I hear this claim a lot but I've never actually understood what "resembles" actually means. The brain structures that transgender people have don't match typical male or female brains but how do you determine which brain transgender brains resemble the most? What is the criteria? To me to determine which brain trans brains were more similar to you would have…

Trans woman here. I agree that the neuroscience feels kind of flimsy. I would further argue that neuroscience shouldn't be used as an argument in favor of "accept trans women as being women" because, among other things, it can just as quickly be turned around by people who seek to pull the You're Not Really Trans Unless A Doctor Says So card on other trans folks. We're women because we say we are - and that's really…

I don't think we have proven that programming is gender neutral at all. We currently are engaging as a whole in gender discrimination against males to the point that we see that there are many more trans females than trans males programmers and yet we aren't even close to 50/50.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#86

Post by rch »

anon1m0us wrote: post #84

It's amazing that something so sexist could have been suggested without backlash. Imagine if studies indicated that low testosterone limited or in some way hindered another desirable human capability. People have been fired for it and reputations ruined. Suggesting men are emotionally stunted. Oh that's fine.

They should try correlating hormone ratios with a total lack of interest in either outcome.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#87

Post by perardi »

queercode wrote: post #56
meiraleal wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it? So why administering intramuscular testoterone has anabolic/androgen effects?

I don't think this is true. Intramuscular testosterone is the most common method of HRT for trans men / trans masc folks. The effects of which are not "androgen".

What?

Every anabolic/androgenic steroid has some degree of androgenic effects. Researchers and pharma tried for decades to create a steroid that has no androgenic effects, to no avail. Even a 5mg dose of Anavar, one of the softest steroids that were actively prescribed for women, had androgenic effects.

Testosterone has a 100/100 anabolic/androgenic ratio. It's definitely androgenic. It will literally put hair on your chest. I don't know what point you're trying to make here.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#88

Post by adrr »

shoes_for_thee wrote: post #17
devwastaken wrote: post #11

Isn't testosterone simply a byproduct of other hormonal processes? More of a measurement of effect than cause?

Ah, no. Adding extra testosterone to any human will cause them to become more male by any measure of maleness.

And also more female as the testosterone is aromatized in estrogen.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#89

Post by perl4ever »

sverona wrote: post #54
TheOperator wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Tend to resemble that of the gender that they identify as I hear this claim a lot but I've never actually understood what "resembles" actually means. The brain structures that transgender people have don't match typical male or female brains but how do you determine which brain transgender brains resemble the most? What is the criteria? To me to determine which brain trans brains were more similar to you would have…

Trans woman here. I agree that the neuroscience feels kind of flimsy. I would further argue that neuroscience shouldn't be used as an argument in favor of "accept trans women as being women" because, among other things, it can just as quickly be turned around by people who seek to pull the You're Not Really Trans Unless A Doctor Says So card on other trans folks. We're women because we say we are - and that's really…

"We're women because we say we are - and that's really all there is to say about it."

It doesn't make any sense for someone else to tell you who you are. How could they know? Of course, if you were autistic or schizophrenic, that would be different...

Anyway, I remember reading an evocative description by a trans man of how testosterone made him feel like a sex crazed monster. Nobody can know for sure if they have the same experience, just like we don't know if the color blue is the same for us.

But it seemed to me that implied one of two things - either he was experiencing what cis males consider normal, and it was horrifying, in which case it was evidence against him being "really" male, or else he was not experiencing what being a cis male is like, in which case it was evidence that administering male hormones may not produce the effect of natural ones.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#90

Post by microcolonel »

pessimizer wrote: post #79
zwkrt wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Amazingly, it turns out that in a vacuum, the activity of programming a computer isn't actually gendered. Also mirrored by the fact that other cultures do not experience this issue so acutely.

Including US culture 50 or more years ago, when most programmers were women.

I'm of the impression that this is a misconception. 50 years ago, "programmer" was a different job. Imagine if executives were just called secretaries now and that's a decent analogy for what I think happened to programmers and architects.
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