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Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

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Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#81
post #35

Nothing good can come from sticking my neck out on this, but: If I were paying for advertising for a software engineering position I'd get much better ROI by excluding women and older demographics simply because they're much less likely to be suitable for the job, statistically speaking, when we're talking about the wider population in general and not just software engineers. Not because they're less capable, but bec…

> If I were paying for advertising for a software engineering position I'd get much better ROI by excluding women and older demographics simply because they're much less likely to be suitable for the job, statistically speaking, when we're talking about the wider population in general and not just software engineers.

I'll go the other way. I can tell you, specifically, that if I want embedded software engineers, generally older is better.

It takes a lot of experience to wrangle software architecture, C, crappy development tools, communication stacks, PCB boards with bugs, microprocessor architectures, real-time operating systems, oscilloscope traces, Wireshark traces of CANBUS, etc. into a functional system

I have yet to meet someone with less than 15 years of experience who can pull that off without me standing over their shoulder telling them what to do.

Not everybody is building the exact same VC funded, fad driven, social malware website over and over and over.

Some of us are doing real work.

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#82
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“It’s not cost efficient” isn’t a valid reason to discriminate against people, if you ask me. An analogy to your justification: the most cost efficient thing to do with hazardous chemicals is to dump them down the drain.

> “It’s not cost efficient” isn’t a valid reason to discriminate against people, if you ask me. It's literally the perfect reason to do discrimination. It is just like discriminating for having work experience, education, demonstrably market skills, etc.

[deleted]

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#83
post #35

Nothing good can come from sticking my neck out on this, but: If I were paying for advertising for a software engineering position I'd get much better ROI by excluding women and older demographics simply because they're much less likely to be suitable for the job, statistically speaking, when we're talking about the wider population in general and not just software engineers. Not because they're less capable, but bec…

> statistically speaking

Based on your own statistics, or someone else's? Or perhaps The Intl. Jnl. Of I Think I Read It Somewhere Once?

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#84
post #35

Nothing good can come from sticking my neck out on this, but: If I were paying for advertising for a software engineering position I'd get much better ROI by excluding women and older demographics simply because they're much less likely to be suitable for the job, statistically speaking, when we're talking about the wider population in general and not just software engineers. Not because they're less capable, but bec…

If I were paying for advertising for a software engineering position I'd get much better ROI by excluding women and older demographics simply because they're much less likely to be suitable for the job, statistically speaking, when we're talking about the wider population in general and not just software engineers.

I think your logic is flawed. What you are not taking into account is that when you advertise, you ask people to do a certain amount of self-selection. If you advertise that you need a Go programmer, it's not like you have to work really hard to only advertise to Go programmers for fear that you will get 1,000,000 resumés from Java programmers.

And even if you did, you can throw out all those resumés cheaply, because they don't have Go experience on them. The big costs in hiring are the cost of showing ads to people, or even the cost of sorting through resumés.

The big costs of hiring are 1. Interviewing people, and 2. The opportunity cost of not finding the right person as soon as possible.

Not advertising to women because you have a theory that there are fewer qualified women out of the entire population of women than there are qualified men out of the entire population of men is premature optimization.

If, for example, you are advertising to Hacker News people, do you really think that the statistics about women in general are relevant? Or perhaps those women who read Hacker News are not representative of women in general?

Same for if you advertise to people who have shown an interest in Go, or Elixir, or Lisp, or distributed system, or DevOps. If you were advertising for people with experience programming for space flight in 1971, there might have only been a dozen women in America with relevant experience.

What kind of logic leads you to say, "Forget it, I am not interested in hearing from Margaret Hamilton, because there are so many women who actually have experience as secretaries?"

I have said this many times before, but when you are seeking exceptional people, people who are actually very rarely available and have many opportunities to choose from, the overall statistics are irrelevant. If out of 10,000 people on Hacker News there are four men you would hire, and only one woman, this is no time too think, "my ads get four times the efficiency if I only advertise to men."

Instead, you should be thinking, "There are only .05% of the readers that I want to hire. If I advertise to both men and women, I increase the chance of finding one of those .05% by a whopping 25%!"

If hiring is easy, that may not matter. But if hiring is hard, if you might make several offers and only get one person to accept, if you might go a month before finding the ideal candidate... You want to advertise far and wide, and use other methods to filter out spammy submissions.

Advertising is cheap. Not being able to hire the right person at that magical moment when they are available is very expensive.

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#85
post #70
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it legal to charge men more for car insurance? It’s definitely more profitable that way, but maybe so is the targeting in the article.

I worked for a car insurance company for ten years and the management would answer, “Because loss history shows that we pay more in claims for insured men.” So that’s ok but for some reason if it were a particular race they wouldn’t think to charge people More by race so honestly I don’t know how to answer your question in a logically consistent manner.

The UK changed the law fairly recently to prevent price differentiation by gender.

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#86
post #65
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. If you are, for example, placing rental or property ads that filter by race, age, or gender that is the official description of it.

and yet, by having a profile of the user, it is quite possible to "easily" find proxies for the above traits, and target those proxies instead, and thus dodge the legality issue. For example, using income.

"Dodging" legality issues creates new, and much more exciting for your defense attorney, legality issues.

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#87
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “It’s not cost efficient” isn’t a valid reason to discriminate against people, if you ask me. Moreover, it's not, in general, a legal reason in the US to discriminate where a protected class is involved, including, in employment, age over 40 or gender.

Why is it legal to charge men more for car insurance? It’s definitely more profitable that way, but maybe so is the targeting in the article.

Then there is the Canadian guy that changed their gender to female to save $1,100.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6007501/Canadian-le...

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#88
post #35

Nothing good can come from sticking my neck out on this, but: If I were paying for advertising for a software engineering position I'd get much better ROI by excluding women and older demographics simply because they're much less likely to be suitable for the job, statistically speaking, when we're talking about the wider population in general and not just software engineers. Not because they're less capable, but bec…

Is your assumption even particularly true?

(your assertion is that ad views in some demographics will so outweigh useful impressions that it is worthwhile to exclude those demographics. But ad views don't cost much!)

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#89
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s interesting to imagine a hypothetical. Suppose a company chose an ad targeting segment with perfect 50/50 historical probability of a viewer being of either traditional male / female gender identity given they are in the segment. Now suppose through some weird fluke, the ads are actually only delivered to people of one single gender classification. Has the company done everything required of them by trying to ta…

For your examples of intent vs actual net targeting, it is not unreasonable to expect that an employer check the actual results of their targeting selections and ensure that they produce sound results. "what is the underlying criteria that supposedly separates job listings from product listings?" It is called Equal Opportunity Employment Law. If you want to employ someone, you MUST give equal opportunity, and cannot…

> “It is called Equal Opportunity Employment Law.”

Sorry I was not clear about this. I meant what are the sociological / philosophical reasons. Legal reasons get created at the whim of lobbying or party politics and don’t usually have much to do with protecting the welfare of people (even though they can selectively serve that purpose after the fact).

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#90
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. If you place an ad on Facebook for housing and choose to exclude people who identify as "black", there's no way for those people to find your ad, save for creating a new Facebook account and pretending to be white. Anyone is welcome to purchase a copy of Ebony magazine. It's targeted, but it's not exclusive.

But should Ebony be allowed to market ads on Facebook and exclude white people? I honestly don’t know where I come down on this issue: it feels different to say, “we have a better ROI if we exclude certain demographics from seeing our ads” than to say “black people can’t eat at this diner.” Let’s take a company like REI: is it wrong for them to put their stores in places that are most profitable? Should luxury good c…

> But should Ebony be allowed to market ads on Facebook and exclude white people?

That's not what this thread is about. The question here is what is the difference between advertising on Facebook and excluding some demographics, and advertising in a paper magazine where you don't have the power to exclude anyone from viewing the ad.

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