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Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

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Re: Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

#81

Post by skohan »

el_cujo wrote: post #67
ohduran wrote: post #24

Currently living in Barcelona, where 'overtourism' is a much bigger problem than in Norway IMHO, it feels weird. You start passing bills on restricting tourism, then the natural next step is being hard on immigration, then Brexit. The ability to control who goes in and who goes out usually falls on the hand of those that shouldn't have that kind of power. Edit: Removed "At the risk of being downvoted" as some comment…

This, it feels very weird to me seeing people advocate for basically only allowing the super rich to travel. To a lot of people, travelling abroad isn't just about getting drunk at foreign clubs and leaving trash everywhere, but about experiencing other cultures and having your world-view widened beyond what you see every day. I think most people would argue these things are good, not just for the individual but for…

Solving the problem of over-tourism is different than raising the price of travel overall. When talking about over-tourism, we're only really talking about a few thousand places which attract so many tourists that they cannot function in a healthy place. If you increased the price of tourism in those select places, then yes, you might have the unfortunate outcome that only upper-middle-class people could visit Paris in May, but all those other people could go to smaller cities in central France which are still full of culture to experience, and might stand to benefit a lot from increased tourist revenue.

But maybe I am a bit biased because I like to visit obscure places anyway.

Re: Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

#82

Post by PeterStuer »

ohduran wrote: post #50
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been a lot of reasons put forward to justify Brexit, this is the first time I’ve heard tourism used as an excuse.

Not at all. What I meant was that Brexit mentality comes from the idea that you are entitled to decide who comes into "your country" and who doesn't. I lean towards a freer movement, but I understand that others lean towards the opposite, and it's fine. My main argument is that countries are just political constructions, and tourists may leave a destructive footprint wherever they go because they don't feel that land…

But it doesn't. A tourist is by definition nomadic, just there to reap some short term benefits regardless of the community's long term commitments and trade-offs. Some of them may be altruists foregoing the more destructive pleasures, others will be 100% self-centered and grab everything they can without a single fink given. There is some carrying capacity under which the impacts can be absorbed without straining the community. Above that it can only end into a race to the bottom.

Re: Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

#83

Post by spodek »

I agree with Donella Meadows that top leverage points of changing systems are its beliefs and goals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_leverage_points.

Once the idea of humans flying was beyond fantasy, now we consider it beyond a right but a necessity. We believe nature is elsewhere, not where we live, and contribute to local degradation, dreaming that we'll experience it elsewhere, but flying or taking a cruise ship there.

Without tackling the beliefs and goals driving the system -- the unbridled sense of entitlement, irresponsibility for how one's actions hurt others, the disdain for reducing growth and maintaining wilderness where we live -- we're rearranging the deck chairs of a sinking ship. Humans lived for hundreds of thousands of years before flight and they weren't all miserable.

I propose promoting staycations, camping, biking, sailing, gardening, and other ways of experiencing diversity with less pollution and more empathy and compassion. But most of all promoting beliefs and goals other than you must fly to be happy. That a great life comes from appreciating where you are. That flying and cruises are dirty. Etc.

The world is too big and beautiful to see everything. When I got that, I realized my best strategy was to enjoy here, now, us wherever I am. Then I didn't need to travel so much despite getting more out of life.

Re: Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

#84

Post by Grue3 »

Scoundreller wrote: post #52
bjornsing wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea it’s a funny word “overtourism”. I guess it’s what you call it when other people go on vacation (whereas when I go on vacation it’s just “tourism”). :P

I think of it as “Only rich people used to be able to come here, but now people of more moderate means can, oh noes”.

Alternatively, "only white people used to be able to come here".

Re: Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

#85

Post by [deleted] »

skohan wrote: post #57
ohduran wrote: post #24

Currently living in Barcelona, where 'overtourism' is a much bigger problem than in Norway IMHO, it feels weird. You start passing bills on restricting tourism, then the natural next step is being hard on immigration, then Brexit. The ability to control who goes in and who goes out usually falls on the hand of those that shouldn't have that kind of power. Edit: Removed "At the risk of being downvoted" as some comment…

I have mixed feelings about this. I used to live in El Raval, and during August I dreaded even leaving the apartment because I knew I would have to fight crowds even to go to the corner and buy milk. I agree with your general premise, that restricting freedom of movement has not historically been a good thing, but I do also think it's a tragic when a beautiful and interesting place gets absolutely overrun by tourists…

[deleted]

Re: Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

#86

Post by farflung12 »

johnchristopher wrote: post #10
buro9 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then only the wealthy may have holidays.

Holidays doesn't mean "travelling to another country in a plane" or "let's take a credit to tour Italy".

Yes it does, "holidays" is interchangeable with "vacation" in some English speaking countries.

Re: Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

#87

Post by skohan »

PeterStuer wrote: post #73
Scoundreller wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sure the Barcelona based ULCC Vueling really helped those get in.

In Barecona's case it was the RyanAir booze flights from the UK that destroyed the city.

When I lived in BCN there was a certain reputation a type for British and German tourists who used the streets as a toilet. It struck me as odd that so many people seemed to view Barcelona as an "anything goes" type of city while the Catalan people are not that wild for the most part and drink socially but not to get drunk.

Re: Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

#88

Post by PeterStuer »

cletus wrote: post #55

Welcome to the world of, by some measures, "too many" people having too much disposable wealth. There are obviously worse problems to have. But overtourism is a problem that's only going to get worse. This even affects Mount Everest where people are literally dying just to say they stood at the top of the world. And Everest simply can't support the number of climbers now. You see this in US national parks where the o…

"Welcome to the world of, by some measures, "too many" people having too much disposable wealth."

Or as in this case, a cabal of people for the travel industry managing to capture public funds to direct massive subsidies towards their goals, either directly or indirectly though avoid pricing in massive externalities and even get massive tax benefits.

Re: Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

#89

Post by el_cujo »

skohan wrote: post #81
el_cujo wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This, it feels very weird to me seeing people advocate for basically only allowing the super rich to travel. To a lot of people, travelling abroad isn't just about getting drunk at foreign clubs and leaving trash everywhere, but about experiencing other cultures and having your world-view widened beyond what you see every day. I think most people would argue these things are good, not just for the individual but for…

Solving the problem of over-tourism is different than raising the price of travel overall. When talking about over-tourism, we're only really talking about a few thousand places which attract so many tourists that they cannot function in a healthy place. If you increased the price of tourism in those select places, then yes, you might have the unfortunate outcome that only upper-middle-class people could visit Paris…

That's true, I guess I'm conflating "overtourism" specifically with a wider push discouraging people from travel to decrease carbon emissions. You make a fair point, there is plenty of the world left to experience beyond the big hubs like Paris and Rome.

Re: Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

#90

Post by baud147258 »

ohduran wrote: post #24

Currently living in Barcelona, where 'overtourism' is a much bigger problem than in Norway IMHO, it feels weird. You start passing bills on restricting tourism, then the natural next step is being hard on immigration, then Brexit. The ability to control who goes in and who goes out usually falls on the hand of those that shouldn't have that kind of power. Edit: Removed "At the risk of being downvoted" as some comment…

> You start passing bills on restricting tourism, then the natural next step is being hard on immigration, then Brexit

It feels like a slippery slope argument.

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