How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls • Hacker News Board

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#81

Post by rchaud » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 3:01 PM UTC

tracer4201 wrote: post #36

Merits (and anti trust possibilities) of Apple doing this aside, just a shout out that it’s another anti tech article on the NYT. They have a daily piece against one of the FAANGs. It’s at the point where I could start plotting this data over time and plastering it in its own thread. Just remember folks - NYT directly competes with many of the FAANGs. Its awfully convenient to do reporting questioning your directly r…

> NYT directly competes with many of the FAANGs.

In what business segment? Does the NYT offer streaming TV/movies? An online retail presence? Cloud infrastructure? Computers and phones?

As reported in the article, the Supreme Court voted 5-4 to allow an anti-trust case to move forward on this issue. That's newsworthy, and IMO the article does a good job in showing the general consumer what anti-competitiveness looks like in practice, while getting comments from both Apple and companies who've been affected by these policies.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#82

Post by Betelgeuse90 » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 3:02 PM UTC

frogpelt wrote: post #24

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #14

I'm not saying this isn't a problem, but it seems pretty minor compared to the fact that: 1) Apple's apps come preinstalled on every iPhone. 2) Apple's apps have permission to do things that 3rd party apps cannot. If I search for "Web Browser" on the App Store... well, technically I'll get results from third parties, but every single one is just a UI skin around Apple's own browser. That strikes me as a much larger p…

I see it differently. Since Apple makes the hardware and the software I don't have a problem with them preinstalling their own products. However, when a user is clearly searching for alternatives on the app store, it matters how far down you have to scroll to find a 3rd party app. Spotify being the 23rd result for a "music" search is absurd.

Spotify is 7th place for me. Apple Music is first. Maybe the country you're in makes a difference.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#83

Post by rstupek » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 3:03 PM UTC

ferdbold wrote: post #71

frogpelt wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see it differently. Since Apple makes the hardware and the software I don't have a problem with them preinstalling their own products. However, when a user is clearly searching for alternatives on the app store, it matters how far down you have to scroll to find a 3rd party app. Spotify being the 23rd result for a "music" search is absurd.

Spotify was the 2nd result under Apple Music when I searched myself, though I have both installed so it probably came down to that

Spotify was 4th for me searching for "music" and I do not have it installed

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#84

Post by vgetr » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 3:03 PM UTC

m_ke wrote: post #74

coldtea wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many times this old wives tale will have to be repeated till people understand what went on then, and how it's nothing like it's now? Microsoft then had a monopoly on desktop OSes at the time, at 95+ (close to 97%, in fact). Apple has a paltry sub-50% share of mobile OSes. The "But they have 100% share on their own products" is not an argument, as far as the law is concerned, as monopolies are not judged this way…

iOS revenue is 2x larger than android. There might be more cheap android phones out there but Apple has the majority of high income individuals.

So...?

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#85

Post by wodenokoto » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 3:04 PM UTC

frogpelt wrote: post #24

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #14

I'm not saying this isn't a problem, but it seems pretty minor compared to the fact that: 1) Apple's apps come preinstalled on every iPhone. 2) Apple's apps have permission to do things that 3rd party apps cannot. If I search for "Web Browser" on the App Store... well, technically I'll get results from third parties, but every single one is just a UI skin around Apple's own browser. That strikes me as a much larger p…

I see it differently. Since Apple makes the hardware and the software I don't have a problem with them preinstalling their own products. However, when a user is clearly searching for alternatives on the app store, it matters how far down you have to scroll to find a 3rd party app. Spotify being the 23rd result for a "music" search is absurd.

It's 4th for me, after something called "Playtune" that has a logo that's a ripoff of Youtube, and is placed in the "Photo and Video" category instead of the "Music" category.

That still feels like Apple is penalising Spotify ...

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#86

Post by grzm » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 3:06 PM UTC

hellomyguys wrote: post #42

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #14

I'm not saying this isn't a problem, but it seems pretty minor compared to the fact that: 1) Apple's apps come preinstalled on every iPhone. 2) Apple's apps have permission to do things that 3rd party apps cannot. If I search for "Web Browser" on the App Store... well, technically I'll get results from third parties, but every single one is just a UI skin around Apple's own browser. That strikes me as a much larger p…

Did you read the article? If you search for Podcast not only is Apple’s podcast app is first, but so it is follows by their compass app, find my friends, their tips app, their tv app, their watch app, their files app, their iTunes app, Apple Books, their reminders app, their news app, their contacts app, then their voice memos app before any 3rd party podcasts app appears. Meta comment regarding HN community... looki…

Regarding the HN community, the guidelines are pretty specific on the topic of your comment:

> Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#87

Post by gamblor956 » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 3:06 PM UTC

013a wrote: post #80

Whole Foods stacks their stores with their 365 brand products. In some cases, competitors to certain products aren't even sold. Of course, there are other grocery stores you can shop at. Just like how there are other mobile platforms you can use. (well: there's another mobile platform, singular. that's a problem). I don't understand the argument for the App Store being a monopoly. Apple can do whatever they want in t…

It's hard to explain from a mobile, but in a nutshell generally retail stores buy the goods they are selling, whether store brand or third party, so they can differentiate the products in store how they like.

Suppliers can and do use leverage like withholding popular brands from stores that go too far in favoring the house brand.

Apps however have no such leverage, and due to the way the store is set up, the retail defense doesn't apply.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#88

Post by Ensorceled » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 3:06 PM UTC

toxik wrote: post #54

nixpulvis wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You lost me with your analogy. Let me extend the pigskin thought exprement a bit. If I own the football team, and the field, and the city (hell, why not), then sure I can choose who plays QB, so I choose my son. Maybe at the start he's even not that bad of a QB, and our team wins some games. Everyone is happy. After a little while though, people realize there's no sense trying out for QB on my team. My son, now left…

I think the analogy isn't very good. Let me try. It's as if you're the one selling all the tickets to the only stadium in town, and you make it so that when your team plays, tickets are cheaper, more abundant, and more visible. Another local team wants to play too, but their ticket prices are outrageous, there's no promotion of the event either, and they might actually be banned from the stadium unless they use ONLY…

Your analogy also isn't very good, your town has lots of other stadiums: The Samsung Galaxarium, The Googlplexel, The LG Centre, The Huawei Dome. Sure the Apple one is pretty fancy and the rules are onerous but there are plenty of other places to do business.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#89

Post by gamblor956 » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 3:07 PM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #46

nixpulvis wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an antitrust issue. If I own the market and some of the fruit, I'll clearly put myself in a better position to attract customers, and thus make sales. The rest of the fruit vendors are 2nd class. Not to mention Apple employees are banned from making apps outside of company time, since they are aware of the issue with insiders having power to make apps that out compete the rest.

How can it possibly be an anti-trust issue for a minority player in a competitive market to choose which products to display in their own retail store? This is markedly different then, for example, Google altering search results to promote their own products, because Google owns something like 90% of Search.

The app store is not a retail store. That's one of the major factors in the antitrust analysis.

In the retail/wholesale model, the retail store buys the third party products and their own store brand products, and sells them both. It might favor the store brand with more promotion or better shelf placement, but both products appear on the shelves, and the third-party has generally already been compensated for their goods (or is contractually owed compensation). In uncommon situations, such as with new products, compensation may be contingent on products sold through (to end customers), but that is not the norm.

In the appstore model, third-party app makers sell apps in Apple's store. Apple sells apps in Apple's store and promotes its own apps ahead of competing apps. It even promotes unrelated apps ahead of competing apps in a blatant attempt to push competitors off the first 2 pages of search results (i.e., off the shelf). Apple also frequently bans apps that compete with Apple's own apps or features, even if such competing apps existed for years before Apple's own apps.

Any one of the aforementioned acts by Apple could be treated as an antitrust issue. And that's not even a comprehensive list.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#90

Post by grezql » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 3:08 PM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #14

I'm not saying this isn't a problem, but it seems pretty minor compared to the fact that: 1) Apple's apps come preinstalled on every iPhone. 2) Apple's apps have permission to do things that 3rd party apps cannot. If I search for "Web Browser" on the App Store... well, technically I'll get results from third parties, but every single one is just a UI skin around Apple's own browser. That strikes me as a much larger p…

for half a year ago when i searched for "Spotify" in the norwegian appstore the first result was some kind of rip-off app with tons of complaints by users thinking it was the official app. Spotify the real app was number 2.

Apple is abusing its market position, it has been obvious for me long before this article and the lawsuits. But coming from a country not a member of EU or strong enough on its own, its hard to do anything about it.