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It is perfectly OK to only code at work, you can have a life too

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Re: It is perfectly OK to only code at work, you can have a life too

#81

Post by yesenadam »

ghaff wrote: post #60
Lazare wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And that's any kind of way to talk to someone?! I don't think so. I think the attitude being expressed is one of the problems with tech culture. If the person honestly holds that attitude, does that not make him part of the problem? There's not a lot of nice ways to describe people who hold problematic views. > I've seen the total straw man response like yours of "requires participants to be all-in 24 hours a day".…

Yes. That is exactly what I meant. I'd just add that, on the subject of strawmen, I'm pretty sure not a single person on this thread has suggested that people shouldn't do software-related things on their own time if that's what they want to do--with the only caveats being care about burnout and possible employee agreements around IP rights. They just shouldn't be de facto required to do so. And, yes, I do think the…

>They just shouldn't be de facto required to do so.

I haven't read anybody saying you should be required to if you don't want to. Yet a lot of the responses are angry as if that's exactly what was suggested.

The line I quoted about "people like you", I was mainly objecting to reading one sentence from someone, responding with "people like you.." and thinking that's ok. You don't know anything about them, I assume. Imagine someone speaking to you like that? Or maybe that's how people routinely speak to each other in your world, and it's perfectly fine. I hope not.

Re: It is perfectly OK to only code at work, you can have a life too

#82

Post by detaro »

yesenadam wrote: post #81
ghaff wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. That is exactly what I meant. I'd just add that, on the subject of strawmen, I'm pretty sure not a single person on this thread has suggested that people shouldn't do software-related things on their own time if that's what they want to do--with the only caveats being care about burnout and possible employee agreements around IP rights. They just shouldn't be de facto required to do so. And, yes, I do think the…

>They just shouldn't be de facto required to do so. I haven't read anybody saying you should be required to if you don't want to. Yet a lot of the responses are angry as if that's exactly what was suggested. The line I quoted about "people like you", I was mainly objecting to reading one sentence from someone, responding with "people like you.." and thinking that's ok. You don't know anything about them, I assume. Im…

The comment ghaff replied to said "If you don't have the desire to do this after work you probably shouldn't even be in the field".

If people that do not want to do it shouldn't be in the field, it's pretty damn close to a requirement.

Re: It is perfectly OK to only code at work, you can have a life too

#83

Post by yesenadam »

mikeash wrote: post #65
yesenadam wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>people like you are one of the problems with tech culture And that's any kind of way to talk to someone?! I don't think so. I was very surprised that the only downvoted comments on this page currently are by people who apparently don't understand how if you love programming, you never do it outside work. On Hacker News! Repeatedly on this page I've seen the total straw man response like yours of "requires participan…

It’s not a nice way to talk to someone but the original comment was also extremely rude. They basically told a significant chunk of the people reading this side that they aren’t worthy of the career they’ve chosen. That’s deeply insulting and it’s no surprise it gets an unpleasant response.

>If you don't have the desire to do this after work you probably shouldn't even be in the field is how I look at it.

That's extremely rude? Deeply insulting? I don't understand. So touchy. The guy isn't allowed to have that opinion, or express it? Why not allow people to have their own opinion? ..What if you read, say, Stallman or Linus or [insert your programmer hero here] saying the same thing, would you think it was extremely rude and deeply insulting?

Re: It is perfectly OK to only code at work, you can have a life too

#84

Post by yesenadam »

detaro wrote: post #82
yesenadam wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They just shouldn't be de facto required to do so. I haven't read anybody saying you should be required to if you don't want to. Yet a lot of the responses are angry as if that's exactly what was suggested. The line I quoted about "people like you", I was mainly objecting to reading one sentence from someone, responding with "people like you.." and thinking that's ok. You don't know anything about them, I assume. Im…

The comment ghaff replied to said "If you don't have the desire to do this after work you probably shouldn't even be in the field". If people that do not want to do it shouldn't be in the field, it's pretty damn close to a requirement.

Well, I guess it's just reading the comment two entirely different ways. The way I read it, it sounds like someone who loves programming, not being able to imagine how you would never want to program outside work–not 24 hours a day, but never at all. You know, for the fun of it.

You make it sound like the guy is your boss, making it a requirement for employment that people do programming they don't want to do outside work hours.

The guy said "probably" and "is how I look at it", but that wasn't enough–the words are still treated like he'd said "definitely" and "I'd make this a legal requirement" or something. Ah anyway.

Re: It is perfectly OK to only code at work, you can have a life too

#85

Post by mikeash »

yesenadam wrote: post #83
mikeash wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not a nice way to talk to someone but the original comment was also extremely rude. They basically told a significant chunk of the people reading this side that they aren’t worthy of the career they’ve chosen. That’s deeply insulting and it’s no surprise it gets an unpleasant response.

>If you don't have the desire to do this after work you probably shouldn't even be in the field is how I look at it. That's extremely rude ? Deeply insulting ? I don't understand. So touchy. The guy isn't allowed to have that opinion, or express it? Why not allow people to have their own opinion? ..What if you read, say, Stallman or Linus or [insert your programmer hero here] saying the same thing, would you think it…

Am I not allowed to have my opinion about his opinion? You can have expansive ideas about opinions being acceptable but you need to apply them consistently. If he can tell a bunch of people that they’re not worthy of their careers, surely I can tell him that this is an awful thing to say.

It’s not “touchy” to be offended when someone says that the thing you do for a living, the thing you’re best at in the whole world, the thing you spend more time doing than anything else except sleeping, is something you shouldn’t even be doing at all, that you’ve somehow fundamentally fucked up a major part of the last couple of decades of your life.

Your question about Stallman and Linus is bizarre. These are people who are famous for being rude, almost as much as they’re famous for their achievements. If either one of them told me that I shouldn’t be in this field because I don’t do much programming in my spare time, I’d tell them to fuck right off.

Re: It is perfectly OK to only code at work, you can have a life too

#86

Post by detaro »

yesenadam wrote: post #84
detaro wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comment ghaff replied to said "If you don't have the desire to do this after work you probably shouldn't even be in the field". If people that do not want to do it shouldn't be in the field, it's pretty damn close to a requirement.

Well, I guess it's just reading the comment two entirely different ways. The way I read it, it sounds like someone who loves programming, not being able to imagine how you would never want to program outside work–not 24 hours a day, but never at all. You know, for the fun of it. You make it sound like the guy is your boss, making it a requirement for employment that people do programming they don't want to do outside…

Things don't have to be legal requirements to effectively be requirements. I'd hate to be considered not fit for tech by my coworkers, my boss, a potential employer, ... because of how I like to spend my free time, and if that sentiment is common it is a problem for people not fitting that expectation. Which I think is be bad, even if I personally would benefit from it. And you see people push others out with arguments like this, it's not a theoretical thing. (I'm not saying the original commenter is doing so, but explaining why I read the comment as negatively as I did)

Re: It is perfectly OK to only code at work, you can have a life too

#87

Post by austhrow743 »

ryandrake wrote: post #70
ghaff wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who is (more or less) in marketing, I'm not sure what studying/practicing marketing outside of work even looks like. I suppose I could read more business books--I read some--but mostly they don't have a whole lot of value. Am I supposed to have a side gig where I do some consulting? I'd think you might have a problem if I were to do that for closely related companies where I had the most experience. (Not t…

Also there is a difference between studying and reflecting on something outside of work, and actually practicing outside of work. Do I want my surgeon to be studying the latest techniques outside of his work? YES Do I need a surgeon who dissects animals and removes tumors at home as a hobby on weekends? NO

Is there such a distinction in programming? Plenty of people use side projects as a way to test out new languages, tools, etc. It's widely held that learning programming in general is easiest if you have something you're trying to build. Are there people just reading a "React for dummies" book and coming away comfortable with it?

Re: It is perfectly OK to only code at work, you can have a life too

#88

Post by ryandrake »

ghaff wrote: post #74
ryandrake wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it would be nice of these companies to out themselves so we can avoid them, it’s usually pretty easy to read between the lines and spot them. Their job descriptions tend to have more red flags than a Chinese parade. I can spot a “you must have no life outside of work” job opening a mile away and avoid it.

"We want passionate developers to join our family. We work hard and we play hard. Together. You'll be part of an exceptional team that won't slow down until we've changed the world." How did I do?

You forgot to mention code ninjas but otherwise A+

Re: It is perfectly OK to only code at work, you can have a life too

#89

Post by Viliam1234 »

megablast wrote: post #6

I don't get this. It is like being an accomplished painter, but never painting anything for yourself. Or a carpenter, and not making your own table or chairs. As a coder, you have the ability to create almost anything. How can that knowledge not tempt you to create something yourself?

> As a coder, you have the ability to create almost anything. How can that knowledge not tempt you to create something yourself?

Oh, it definitely does, but...

The stuff I wrote during school, in Turbo Pascal, is just too old and completely unrelated to what I do for living now.

I also have hobbies other than programming. Since I started spending 8 hours a day coding at work, I usually spend my afternoons doing the other things that interest me. When else should I be doing them?

And now I have small kids, so there is almost no free time anyway.

The projects I did in previous jobs, I don't own the code. I was never paid to work on an open-source project.

...and this is why I don't have anything to show you on Github. Not because I don't care about programming, but because I also have a life. (Perhaps that is a competitive disadvantage. Well, I can still find a job regardless.)

Yeah, I could choose to just ignore everything for a few weeks or months, and build something on Github instead, just to get that extra point at an interview, but it would feel like building a Potemkin village. Unless really necessary, I would prefer not to do that. I hope this makes sense.

Re: It is perfectly OK to only code at work, you can have a life too

#90

Post by Viliam1234 »

peteretep wrote: post #42

If you’re not sufficiently excited about programming that you want to spend your free time doing it, that’s fine. But don’t expect technical employers to be all that excited by you.

Yeah, if you have a family, you are probably not sufficiently dedicated to your job anyway. And if you only have a girlfriend, if she truly loves you, she will certainly understand that you don't want to waste your precious free time with her. It's all about priorities.
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