Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city • Hacker News Board

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#81

Post by JoeAltmaier » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 2:04 PM UTC

piotr1212 wrote: post #78

krageon wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of years it takes for solar to pay for itself is not set in stone. The ten year prognosis is extremely conservative and frequently untrue, especially if you start to load most of your power-heavy operations (washing, dishes, etc) into the daytime when the generated power is sufficient to support those things. Given that there is not yet (as far as I'm aware) a tax on kWh used entirely from solar panels (ie…

You are correct that if you use your energy before it gets on the grid you are fine. But that is quite hard for most people to accomplish, most people are not at home during daytime when the panels generate most. The time my washing machine actually consumes energy warming up the water is relatively short. The largest part of the power consumption of my home owners association is spent on lighting, the other part on…

Silicon Valley is coincidentally a place where home-time and solar-peak kind of coincide. My brother's solar panels peak in the late afternoon all summer, when he's programmed the air conditioning to come on.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#82

Post by AndrewDucker » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 2:10 PM UTC

GarrisonPrime wrote: post #76

lhnz wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's likely that you would need to get planning permission to put solar panels on the roof of a building. This generally requires you to be the owner. Therefore it might not be best described as a market failure. It could be better described as a failure due to planning regulations that only give power to land-owners. This is big problem in Europe, since as you point out: many people rent.

So...you think regulations should allow renters to modify someone else’s property, even if against the owners wishes? If a proposition for solar panels is actually realistic and a net positive, the owners should be easily convinced without resorting to force.

The owners would have to pay for the panels.

They do not pay for the electricity used in the property.

Therefore there is no way for it to be in their economic interests.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#83

Post by diafygi » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 2:10 PM UTC

B2oka wrote: post #50

diafygi wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solar, when combined with energy storage, can serve as a dispatchable resource. Even with battery storage, solar is already cheaper that existing dispatchable coal generation. http://ieefa.org/ieefa-u-s-solar-plus-storage-is-undermining...

Interesting, even though it's just feasibility study > it would be economic for PacifiCorp to close the existing coal generation under question and replace that capacity with other resources, including new renewables, demand-side solutions, battery storage, gas peakers and open-market purchases Curious to see the exact combination of these options and their associated emissions

Xcel in Colorado has already started retiring coal plants in favor of renewables+storage based on bids for actual projects.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/record-low-sola...

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/xcel-retire-coa...

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#84

Post by piotr1212 » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 2:14 PM UTC

gdhbcc wrote: post #77

piotr1212 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure? Does electricity in Portugal cost 10 to 20 cent before tax? Why is it so expensive? We pay 6 cent/kWH before tax in the Netherlands.

Because we had a government owned company with a monopoly that the EU forced us to sell. So now we have a private monopoly instead of a public one.

https://econews.pt/2018/08/07/why-are-electricity-bills-so-h...

> If we breakdown prices, we realize that families in Portugal have the second highest tax burden in Europe (12 cents per kilowatt-hour).

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#85

Post by navigatesol » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 2:16 PM UTC

addicted wrote: post #45

roenxi wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or alternatively, that the market has a better grasp of the situation than the head of solar analysis at BloombergNEF. Just because she has 'head' and 'solar' in her title doesn't mean she is all-knowing about the solar market. If solar actually represented a better deal companies would be falling over themselves to install solar panels everywhere. It is likely that there are important realities or risks that the ana…

When you consider that governments spend trillions of dollars a year subsidizing fossil fuels (this is not an exaggeration), maybe that’s why it hasn’t been taken up despite it being cheaper? And because like any new technologies there are additional factors, such as fear of different and new, and entrenched interests pushing against the new efforts. https://www.vox.com/2019/5/17/18624740/fossil-fuel-subsidies...

>When you consider that governments spend trillions of dollars a year subsidizing fossil fuels (this is not an exaggeration)

It is an exaggeration, and it's mostly on the consumption side, not production. Why does the OECD come up with $150-$200BB a year in subsidies? Why is the IEA estimate ~$400BB?:

https://www.carbonbrief.org/explainer-the-challenge-of-defin...

The IMF report says a whopping $4.6TT of the $5.2TT are "externalities". I think we all agree externalities exist, but externalities are not subsidies, nor are they easy to price.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#86

Post by perfunctory » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 2:21 PM UTC

big_chungus wrote: post #73

perfunctory wrote: post #2

> “There’s also the fact that companies just can’t be bothered a lot of the time – there are roofs all over Europe where solar could probably save money, but people are not jumping to do it.” That's why believing in market forces alone is a little naive. There has to be a little nudge from the government.

> a little nudge from the government Like the subsidies they've had for years? Regardless, what are they going to do, come forcibly put solar panels on your roof? Keep them maintained? Repair them if a branch falls?

First, the quote, and my comment, are in the context of commercial solar projects, not residential. Think about a company installing solar on the roof of a factory.

Second, I am sure there are many different ways to implement the nudge. Indeed, maybe instead of subsidizing solar we should rather stop subsidizing fossil.

Finally, talking about residential, currently almost every house has a gas pipe connected to it forcibly. And that pipe also requires maintenance. And sometimes gas leaks and your house blows up. And I don't see how forced solar would in theory be different to the current gas situation.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#87

Post by chiefalchemist » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 2:25 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #18

chiefalchemist wrote: post #13

This isn't meant to be troll-y / snark-y, but if the USA factored out subsidies for Big Oil, and then added in the military costs associated with keeping the oil flowing, that would make solar look much more attractive.

Even if we become energy independent from ME oil, which we’re net independent I think, (and about 90% on the crude side?) then we still have Japan, Europe and many parts in Asia which need uninterrupted oil supplies from the ME.

Perhaps. I'm only suggesting the total cost of oil be considered, presuming we're doing the same for solar.

p.s. As it contributes to/drives climate change, we might as well include storm damage and such with the cost of oil.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#88

Post by chiefalchemist » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 2:30 PM UTC

consumer451 wrote: post #36

angstrom wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to ignore. Just as easy as 2003 when the American empire secured the ME oil unilaterally from Iraq by ousting Saddam while all other powers made no retaliation for the move other than strong condemnation which is really the same thing. No one liked it, but no one was really going to lift a finger to prevent it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War#Off...

Even that purported rationale for the second invasion of Iraq was false. “We” secured that Iraqi oil to export it mostly to Asia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_industry_in_Iraq

It doesn't matter where it goes per se, as much as who controls it. Oil (read: the price of) is a weapon. Look what the crash (of the price of crude) did to Venezuela. If energy (read: oil) is essential to your economy then you can't let someone else yo-yo the price at will.

And thus, the first foreign country for POTUS DJT to visit was Saudi Arabia.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#89

Post by Scoundreller » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 2:36 PM UTC

llampx wrote: post #56

stefan_ wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. There are times in the German power grid when you can get paid for consuming (green) electricity!

Charging an EV sounds like the best way of taking advantage of that.

Too bad the grid is too dumb to let end-users actually get these prices.

And the distribution and transmission prices are usually fixed. But I think they should float with supply and demand too: the drivers of upgrades and failures are the peak-time users of capacity.

That’s what we do with data, don’t know why we don’t do it with electrons.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#90

Post by hokkos » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 2:37 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #64

JanSt wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany already has extremely high energy prices (~0,29€/kwh) of which nearly 0,07€ is just for renewable energy subsidies. More investments will not increase jobs, because China produces solar panels at way lower costs. While I agree that coal needs to be phased out, it's not so much about the 20k jobs but more so about base-load. You either need massive storage (which comes at massive cost) or some other form, i.e.…

It seems ridiculous to pay such high prices and have high coal emissions. Someone's stealing something.

It is just that renewable forces you to have redundant power generation, massive grid infrastructure, and because they started to early had to pay a massive premium without having the luxury of having developed domestics champions for solar due to the irregular incentives and smaller market than china.