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How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

nytimes.com

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Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#81

Post by SkyBelow »

notadoc wrote: post #38

The USA is purging intellectuals as well through outrage culture, online mobs, and the weaponization of political correctness. Both the far right and far left do it routinely to their advantage, they both seem to think the ends justify the means. Whoever has the loudest megaphone and can effectively stir up a sufficiently large outrage mob is the winner. Facts do not matter, evidence can be deemed "offensive" and is…

>The USA is purging intellectuals as well through outrage culture, online mobs, and the weaponization of political correctness.

While there is some silencing of people and view points, I don't think it is not fair to those in Turkey to consider it on the same level as their purge. Outside of a few areas dealing with the social sciences, the worst an expert in their field is going to have to deal with is government funding cuts.

I can point out some problems with the way we currently do science, including funding issues, replication issues, unfair amounts of criticism based on how socially agreeable a finding is, and in very rare cases people's employment being at risk for 'wrongthink', but even the worst cases of these barely even compare and no one is ending up being imprisoned over it.

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#82

Post by nbabitskiy »

mhh__ wrote: post #54
username90 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many experts are just preachers in different attire. Honestly, should we really listen to scientist who gets labeled experts based non replicable studies? The problem is that all of them gets the same doctors titles but only some of them are doing honest research, and our current society has no good way to deal with this. As a result laymen notice that significant parts of science is pure bullshit, no wonder there ar…

Really? The point michael gove was making, if you're not aware, was to try and shun any attempt at "expert"-ing. Within the context of Brexit, the leavers had their own group of "experts" i.e. the ERG but any attempt at economic prediction was clearly shunned on the grounds of it being "Project Fear" despite no specific biases being demonstrated. Because that's the only way, along with blatant lies, to get people bel…

As it looked for a foreigner, reading almost exclusively mainstream media, when I happened to come by, not only were not pro-staying experts shunned, rather I was stunned for the outcome, because I never heard anything pro-leaving, or any expectation it would end this way. Surely Brexit guys mean it not like Erdogan (i.e. jail time), but more like "if media don't serve as a feedback channel, both voters and elites could as well turn tvs off"?

It's very interesting to me, cause I observe experts in expertise everywhere in Russian media, and have been feeling lately, that they'll close themselves in no time, if they proceed that way, or turn into buzzfeeds.

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#83

Post by Dirlewanger »

gumby wrote: post #29
monksy wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now there are people who have stated criticism of political bias (pro-conservative, conservative-leaning speakers, center-left, etc) that are being punished in the US academic world.

I'd be curious about some substantive examples. I have seen that assertion frequently made, and even have attended multiple seminars on the topic (I have some friends very worried about this issue) as well as some FIRE meetings and fundraisers. Yet I typically see the same few examples repeated and amplified. FIRE loves to talk about the cases it has challenged under Title IX -- and it always wins, because the law co…

Read about the Evergreen State College protests that happened in 2017.

Also in 2017, read about all the property damage that Berkeley students did to the town because they couldn't stop a speaker who had different political beliefs from talking at the school.

Edit: And what a surprise, the downvotes come in from all the inveterate Bay Area cocksuckers that get offended from facts. I hope the next earthquake sends all of you and the entire Bay Area into the sea.

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#84

Post by anticensor »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #44

Turkey's GDP peaked at $950 billion in 2013, just before Erdogan became president. By 2017, it had slid to $850 billion, and after the intellectual purges, slid to just $766 billion in 2018. [1] People may argue from ideology for or against politics like these, but I can think of no clearer indication of these policies' failure than the impoverishing of a country. [1]: https://tradingeconomics.com/turkey/gdp

Erdoğan disrupted the economy, despite claiming he was an economist by education.

His son-in-law has become the finance minister and furthered the disruption.

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#85

Post by anticensor »

dmitriid wrote: post #57
thaumaturgy wrote: post #44

Turkey's GDP peaked at $950 billion in 2013, just before Erdogan became president. By 2017, it had slid to $850 billion, and after the intellectual purges, slid to just $766 billion in 2018. [1] People may argue from ideology for or against politics like these, but I can think of no clearer indication of these policies' failure than the impoverishing of a country. [1]: https://tradingeconomics.com/turkey/gdp

> Turkey's GDP peaked at $950 billion in 2013, just before Erdogan became president. By 2017, it had slid to $850 billion Do you realise that Erdogan has been in power since 2001? So if economic downturn is his achievement, then the economic growth is his achievement, too.

He had significant checks and balances when he was the prime minister. Many of them are removed, nearly half of the executive powers lie upon the president, without any balance, currently. This is thanks to "presidential order"s (Cumhurbaşkanı Kararı), which is separate from "presidential decree"s (Cumhurbaşkanlığı Kararnamesi), which can be struck by the constitutional court.

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#86

Post by SkyBelow »

gumby wrote: post #29
monksy wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now there are people who have stated criticism of political bias (pro-conservative, conservative-leaning speakers, center-left, etc) that are being punished in the US academic world.

I'd be curious about some substantive examples. I have seen that assertion frequently made, and even have attended multiple seminars on the topic (I have some friends very worried about this issue) as well as some FIRE meetings and fundraisers. Yet I typically see the same few examples repeated and amplified. FIRE loves to talk about the cases it has challenged under Title IX -- and it always wins, because the law co…

>and it always wins, because the law considers this an important issue!

Winning often comes at a cost and just merely having to defend oneself causes enough damage to be considered a form of punishment regardless of the lack of an official classification as one.

While it isn't nearly the same level as losing your job and being blacklisted, I also don't think it should be counted as the same as someone who does not have to go through a similar process.

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#87

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

Dumblydorr wrote: post #68
baxtr wrote: post #59

My favorite concept right now is the “meritocracy of ideas” - a fancy way of saying that the best ideas win. Somehow I feel that this is a core driver for success, in an organization, small or big. So by excluding smart people and their ideas you may significantly limit yourself and the futures your organization.

How do you define meritocracy? Ideas are infectious and they clearly do not need truthful or academic merit to spread like wildfire.

They don't necessarily. But historically, allowing ideas to spread like wildfire seems like it's been a lot more effective at reaching the truth than having the authorities decide what's true and only let true things spread.

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#88

Post by vkou »

Dumblydorr wrote: post #68
baxtr wrote: post #59

My favorite concept right now is the “meritocracy of ideas” - a fancy way of saying that the best ideas win. Somehow I feel that this is a core driver for success, in an organization, small or big. So by excluding smart people and their ideas you may significantly limit yourself and the futures your organization.

How do you define meritocracy? Ideas are infectious and they clearly do not need truthful or academic merit to spread like wildfire.

Tautalogically, in the same sham way that we generally define meritocracy.

"These ideas won, because, clearly, they are the best."

"These people are successful, because, clearly, they are the best."

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#89

Post by zzzcpan »

stcredzero wrote: post #39
wefarrell wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's hardly the takeaway from this article. In Turkey the state took jobs and freedom of mobility away from those with ideologies that the regime did not favor. This article says nothing about persecution from the academic establishment to which you refer.

That's hardly the takeaway from this article. The article talks about academics being persecuted. In Turkey the state took jobs and freedom of mobility away from those with ideologies that the regime did not favor. Good point. To look for authoritarianism, look for powerful organizations and people taking away jobs and economic security from "those with ideologies the regime did not favor." It works for more types of…

> look for powerful organizations and people taking away jobs and economic security from "those with ideologies the regime did not favor."

That's going to make those people desperate and ready to fight the government. Next step for the government is going to be imprisoning lots of people and manufacturing consent and all that.

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#90

Post by mda »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #44

Turkey's GDP peaked at $950 billion in 2013, just before Erdogan became president. By 2017, it had slid to $850 billion, and after the intellectual purges, slid to just $766 billion in 2018. [1] People may argue from ideology for or against politics like these, but I can think of no clearer indication of these policies' failure than the impoverishing of a country. [1]: https://tradingeconomics.com/turkey/gdp

Eh, Erdogan is in power since 2002 elections, GDP was 232B at the time. Your comment doesn't make much sense.
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