Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions • Hacker News Board

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#81

Post by Apocryphon » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 5:16 PM UTC

malvosenior wrote: post #61

ahelwer wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporations are run so they suck as many profits out of the company as possible during the boom times, then "cut costs" (aka dump overboard the workers who created those profits) at the slightest change of the economic winds. Unions change that equation; corporations won't be able to run that strategy, and will maintain a cushion to get through the inevitable downturn.

I have never in 20+ years of experience seen a company dump high performing engineers just to lower costs. It's those very engineers that engendered the success the company enjoys. I have seen good teams cut but that's only when macro issues have made it necessary.

You must have worked at places with exceedingly good management, or not at startups.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#82

Post by duxup » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 5:17 PM UTC

ghettoCoder wrote: post #70

duxup wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You only have the current benefits because some sort of union fought for them. I think that is a bit of a grand statement don't you think? I've worked non union jobs and I'm pretty sure the benefits I get are not directly due to a union... I wouldn't associate ALL benefits with a union, nor would that necessitate forming one simply if you thought those benefits were related. I've worked for some nice people, I do be…

If you think that any of the labour laws, health benefits, vacation days, special leave (bereavement for example) or any of the other things you take for granted as part of your normal work day didn't come from unions continually pushing the envelope of worker's rights then I good luck with that. The remuneration package offered by a business is typically dictated by the business sector (competitors) so saying "I've…

I just don't buy into the idea that because unions have helped generally compared to decades ago ... that means you should consider one as a solution now.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#83

Post by vcarl » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 5:18 PM UTC

ttcbj wrote: post #73

My Dad owns a construction company in a highly unionized region. He is an advocate for unions, although he acknowledges that quality varies among them. That said, many of the conditions where unions are beneficial don't seem to apply in tech: * Vocational training: unions in our area run schools to train craftsman (e.g. carpenters). This increases productivity and screens for quality. * Shifting workforce: Constructi…

Vocational training absolutely could be done in tech, web/app development is much closer to carpentry than it is to computer science in my view.

Unions are definitely complex, it's not a silver bullet to solve issues in the workplace. But at its core it's a group of people negotiating as a unit: the rest is just the natural evolution of a group where some power has been attained. More members means more organization needed to keep everything straight, and more organization means more barriers to joining. Once there's a real structure to the power a union gets, it's subject to the same people problems as an other organization.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#84

Post by Balgair » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 5:19 PM UTC

ahelwer wrote: post #80

ben_jones wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a dichotomy in software development between the developers who represent single points of failure in an organization and the increasing number of "replaceable" developers i.e. developers versed only in popular frameworks or who hold introductory/recent-grad levels of domain knowledge with no desire to go further. I think right now were in a "golden age" where the latter group still holds power and can command…

This exists in all industries. It is called experience. Developers convincing themselves that they're single points of failure is arrogance, IMO. 99.9% of the time if you leave then someone can step right up and take your place. Oh sure there will be costs, lost productivity, maybe an outage, but the world keeps turning. So go ahead and take that vacation.

The OP here mentions that they can just go to another shop and get work if they do not like their current shop. That's fine, but the employers can do the same too. They can fire you and get another person as well. Granted, right now, the employee holds a lot more power in the market, but that will ebb over time, and it may even switch.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#85

Post by Apocryphon » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 5:20 PM UTC

crimsonalucard wrote: post #77

mawburn wrote: post #19

Maybe unionization needs a disrupt? I'm not against unionization in a lot of industries, but it just doesn't make sense in its current form for the tech scene or any other high demand position. It feels like an outdated mechanism used for people who were happy to sit in the same role, doing the same thing, for 45yrs.

Startup idea: an app for employees to organize anonymously. Not a legal union. But an app that can send to an employer this message: "95% of your employees disagree with this issue" Basically centralized communication through voting without the need for union bureaucracy. The app can optionally take the next step and help employees become a legal union but before that it can function as basically anonymous Slack with…

So a Blind or Glassdoor that actually serves the needs of workers within a company.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#86

Post by moorhosj » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 5:20 PM UTC

dymk wrote: post #47

moorhosj wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

==We can form a union when we need to form a union.== In my 35 years of life, it has become harder to start a union, so it isn't out of the question that it becomes harder and harder to start a union when software engineers "need to". There's no guarantee that what exists today will exist tomorrow.

I agree with that, but I don't agree with the underlying notion of us ever needing to unionize. Do people actually think that software engineering is going to become a job that isn't skilled, and isn't sought after?

==Do people actually think that software engineering is going to become a job that isn't skilled, and isn't sought after?==

I'm not sure why you would be so sure it wouldn't. Are the software engineers of today truly that different from the machinists of yesterday?

If you believe in the free market, then it is elementary that more people will flood into these careers which will lower the wages and diminish the bargaining power of existing software engineers.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#87

Post by dymk » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 5:25 PM UTC

moorhosj wrote: post #86

dymk wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with that, but I don't agree with the underlying notion of us ever needing to unionize. Do people actually think that software engineering is going to become a job that isn't skilled, and isn't sought after?

==Do people actually think that software engineering is going to become a job that isn't skilled, and isn't sought after?== I'm not sure why you would be so sure it wouldn't. Are the software engineers of today truly that different from the machinists of yesterday? If you believe in the free market, then it is elementary that more people will flood into these careers which will lower the wages and diminish the bargai…

If your argument about it being elementary for people to flood into the career were true, then why have far older and desirable professions like law and medicine continued to be incredibly well paying?

Software is hard, humans have a hard time doing hard things, that's why we get paid more.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#88

Post by moorhosj » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 5:25 PM UTC

mawburn wrote: post #50

moorhosj wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions could help in each of these case, so you haven't answered the question or provided any evidence.

Please don't move the goalpost. My comment was responding to your comment about average tenure, not unions specifically. You didn't raise any questions on how unions played into average tenure or provide any example of how they could help.

No goalposts were moved. I questioned the premise of OP's comment on whether unions can exist in a world where employees choose to switch jobs every 2-3 years.

You responded with an authoritative answer backed up with zero evidence or supporting data. That it was about unions is an embedded assumption based on that fact that the entire discussion is about unions.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#89

Post by Balgair » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 5:25 PM UTC

ttcbj wrote: post #73

My Dad owns a construction company in a highly unionized region. He is an advocate for unions, although he acknowledges that quality varies among them. That said, many of the conditions where unions are beneficial don't seem to apply in tech: * Vocational training: unions in our area run schools to train craftsman (e.g. carpenters). This increases productivity and screens for quality. * Shifting workforce: Constructi…

In a lot of unions a major component is safety.

Though it may not seem like safety is a big concern in tech right now, there are areas where it will be of concern. For example, Unions may be a good method to force safety concerns in self-driving cars and in IoT devices. Unions may help with health-care data and privacy. Unions may help with other forms of sensitive information like in judicial work and military work.

I'm not saying that unions are the only way to force safety, but they have been an effective force for safety in other areas in the past. Their effectiveness should not be discounted out of hand.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#90

Post by jonny_eh » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 5:27 PM UTC

lallysingh wrote: post #31

dawhizkid wrote: post #8

Biggest question is if a union or union-like system makes sense in companies where the average tenure is ~2-3 years mostly due to employee choice.

Why do they leave? Are those reasons addressable by a union?

Boredom or better opportunities.