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There is no 'right' vs. 'left': it is the oligarchs against the rest

theguardian.com

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Re: There is no 'right' vs. 'left': it is the oligarchs against the rest

#81

Post by raarts »

finnthehuman wrote: post #77
raarts wrote: post #39

The central question of this article: > So why do we continue to hear and use the same old “right” and “left” labels? > I suspect it’s because the emerging oligarchy feels safer if Americans are split along the old political battle lines. That way, Americans won’t notice they’re being shafted. Wouldn't this imply the oligarchs control the media? Or at least the public discourse? But that's not the impression I get fr…

>CNN, MSNBC, and other networks make it perfectly clear they are anti-Trump, in fact most of the media seems to be in agreement with that. By focusing on how much they hate Trump, what are they not focusing on? What have they all decided has been solved off-screen that you shouldn't worry your head about? >I mean almost everybody seems to agree that Trump is bad. YouTube and Fox seem to be the exception. Why are thos…

> By focusing on how much they hate Trump, what are they not focusing on? What have they all decided has been solved off-screen that you shouldn't worry your head about?

I dunno, this almost sounds like an Alex-Jones style conspiracy theory.

Re: There is no 'right' vs. 'left': it is the oligarchs against the rest

#82

Post by finnthehuman »

raarts wrote: post #81
finnthehuman wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>CNN, MSNBC, and other networks make it perfectly clear they are anti-Trump, in fact most of the media seems to be in agreement with that. By focusing on how much they hate Trump, what are they not focusing on? What have they all decided has been solved off-screen that you shouldn't worry your head about? >I mean almost everybody seems to agree that Trump is bad. YouTube and Fox seem to be the exception. Why are thos…

> By focusing on how much they hate Trump, what are they not focusing on? What have they all decided has been solved off-screen that you shouldn't worry your head about? I dunno, this almost sounds like an Alex-Jones style conspiracy theory.

What did you think of William Arkin's resignation letter from NBC News?

The idea of deliberate, clear, top-down oligarch manipulation of media is nonsense, I just thought the argument against that hypothetical to be empty. I do not find the lack of editorial consistency across outlets to preclude it. I could just as easily say the strong division around a low number of media sanctioned positions could even suggest the existence of warring factions of oligarchs. But I don't think that either.

I do think lots of small, deliberate and conscious editorial decisions are an evolutionary process that creates giant editorial shifts where none (or few) participants can see the forest for the trees while they're in the middle of it. Only after it's effects are seen does the change come into focus.

Re: There is no 'right' vs. 'left': it is the oligarchs against the rest

#83

Post by raarts »

finnthehuman wrote: post #82
raarts wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By focusing on how much they hate Trump, what are they not focusing on? What have they all decided has been solved off-screen that you shouldn't worry your head about? I dunno, this almost sounds like an Alex-Jones style conspiracy theory.

What did you think of William Arkin's resignation letter from NBC News? The idea of deliberate, clear, top-down oligarch manipulation of media is nonsense, I just thought the argument against that hypothetical to be empty. I do not find the lack of editorial consistency across outlets to preclude it. I could just as easily say the strong division around a low number of media sanctioned positions could even suggest th…

> What did you think of William Arkin's resignation letter from NBC News?

Did not see that until now, but I do get bored by the unlimited barrage of anti-Trump articles that some outlets put out. Sometimes I feel like they are just in meetings all day mulling what they can write to put Trump down.

Still don't think lots of small, deliberate and conscious edits are happening. I know various people in the news business, and they would notice if this would be happening.

EDIT: funny tweet that shows how I feel: https://twitter.com/tabytchi/status/1146513236398944256?s=21

Re: There is no 'right' vs. 'left': it is the oligarchs against the rest

#84

Post by smsm42 »

HissingMachine wrote: post #13

There have been numerous articles and columns written about the dangers of rising populism in Europe, yet here is a respectable voice advocating populism as the solution for US. So which is it, the solution or a danger?

> So which is it, the solution or a danger?

Obviously, if my ingroup folks are doing it, it's the solution - we are just appealing to the wisdom of crowds and attracting common people to our cause. However, if outgroup folks do it, they are exploiting the ignorance of the masses and appealing to the basest instincts of the mob, and thus it is a grave danger.

Re: There is no 'right' vs. 'left': it is the oligarchs against the rest

#85

Post by smsm42 »

mc32 wrote: post #15
HissingMachine wrote: post #13

There have been numerous articles and columns written about the dangers of rising populism in Europe, yet here is a respectable voice advocating populism as the solution for US. So which is it, the solution or a danger?

Obviously populism is the solution, but only if it’s on your side, otherwise it’s this nefarious out of control thing that perverts political systems and threatens democracy. This author makes erroneous assertions along the way in support of their thesis. So I don’t think it holds much water. Soros and the Kochs are some of the biggest political donors and influencers and while they donate massive amounts to progress…

> they have very little interest in helping working class Americans.

What you mean by "helping working class Americans"? I am definitely working (every day, many hours), does my interest count? If I would like for America to become more libertarian (or more socialist), can it be said Koch (or Soros) are helping my interests? Or only a direct ACH transfer counts? Or something in between - what? Every politician I've see has declared they'd be "helping working class Americans" - and they all have diametrically opposed ideas of what that means. One can almost conclude it doesn't mean anything but a meaningless platitude politician has to do along with shaking hands and kissing babies.

Re: There is no 'right' vs. 'left': it is the oligarchs against the rest

#86

Post by smsm42 »

raarts wrote: post #39

The central question of this article: > So why do we continue to hear and use the same old “right” and “left” labels? > I suspect it’s because the emerging oligarchy feels safer if Americans are split along the old political battle lines. That way, Americans won’t notice they’re being shafted. Wouldn't this imply the oligarchs control the media? Or at least the public discourse? But that's not the impression I get fr…

> I wrestle with understanding why most media are anti-Trump and anti-oligarchy,

Who told you they are anti-oligarchy? They are most definitely pro-oligarchy, they are just upset the power is not in their (I mean a person from their peer group) hands. Compare media behavior when the control belongs to "their" and "opposing" party, and you'll see a stark difference.

> and the oligarchs are still able to control those media's use of 'left' and 'right'. How does this work?

They are the oligarchy. Talking heads on TV are part of the system. There's no some struggle to control them and bring them under the toe of the oligarchy - they are a body part of it. Nobody wonders how a man manager to control the fingers of his own hands - it's his hand, of course he controls it.

Re: There is no 'right' vs. 'left': it is the oligarchs against the rest

#87

Post by _dps »

majewsky wrote: post #69
PaulAJ wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just tried that 8 Values thing. Interesting, but it depended too much on existing buzzwords and quotes, and contained a number of false dichotomies. E.g. "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs". If you didn't know the quote then it might sound like a good description of a modern welfare state, so only people with strongly libertarian views would reject it. However most people who reco…

I noticed the same about false dichotomies, particularly on the question of open borders. > We should open our borders to immigration. This would be a definite "No" to me, but I still answered with "Weakly agree", because otherwise it puts me in the strong-borders faction, which I definitely don't belong into. I don't want open borders right now , but I want the world to evolve into a state where we can have open bor…

It's important to note that the Schengen agreement was only about travel, and not what what is commonly assumed these days regarding border debates: the ability to come, settle, work, and take part in the social safety net.

Switzerland for example was a Schengen signatory. Switzerland has never allowed open immigration, work permits, or welfare benefits for people entering under Schengen terms.

So while I think you give a good example of what can happen in 50 years, I think it's very important to draw a distinction between Schengen-like agreements and what people commonly understand from the closed/open border debate.

Re: There is no 'right' vs. 'left': it is the oligarchs against the rest

#89

Post by spiralx »

smsm42 wrote: post #85
mc32 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously populism is the solution, but only if it’s on your side, otherwise it’s this nefarious out of control thing that perverts political systems and threatens democracy. This author makes erroneous assertions along the way in support of their thesis. So I don’t think it holds much water. Soros and the Kochs are some of the biggest political donors and influencers and while they donate massive amounts to progress…

> they have very little interest in helping working class Americans. What you mean by "helping working class Americans"? I am definitely working (every day, many hours), does my interest count? If I would like for America to become more libertarian (or more socialist), can it be said Koch (or Soros) are helping my interests? Or only a direct ACH transfer counts? Or something in between - what? Every politician I've s…

Or you could conclude it's a complex issue that well-meaning people can come to very different views on the causes of and the solutions to. Different viewpoints existing doesn't mean they're all meaningless and/or lies.
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