Hillbillies Need No Elegy • Hacker News Board

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#81

Post by dsfyu404ed » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:07 PM UTC

sudosteph wrote: post #62

TomMckenny wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If anything, Appalachian are uniquely under-represented nationally. While the region as a whole contains nearly 25 million people, WV is the only state to have two Appalacian senators. I think TN has one as well, but, overall the political power of Appalachia does not at all seem sufficient to warrant extra attention. Technically that is 50% more senators than California with twice the population.

Senators were just to make a comparison point against other rural areas (considering that the Senate is the place most rural places are over-represented). The same division though also ensures that, unlike Californians, Appalachians have relatively little voice in the electoral vote or for governor-level positions as well because WV is their only majority state.

A senator does you no good if your primary governmental irritant is the state government which for most rural areas is the case. The federal government generally doesn't do anything to egregious to rural areas (maybe because most federal policy mostly doesn't affect people's day to day lives or maybe because of those senators doing their jobs?) but the state governments generally have a problem with major cities enacting state level policy that should really be done on a county level.

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#82

Post by _dczq » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:12 PM UTC

humanrebar wrote: post #66

moorhosj wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think his biggest miss was failing to connect the region to the rest of the country. He could have easily compared Appalachia to Rust Belt cities facing urban decay but never made the connection. It could have made the story of the region more approachable to more people. It seemed so obvious to me how the areas are linked by economic circumstances, environmental degradation, poor education levels, distinct culture…

So you wanted him to write a different book? Maybe he had different goals and that's fine.

Not what I said at all. I thought there was an opportunity to make a larger connection between what has happened in the Appalachian towns he focuses on and larger Rust Belt cities who face much of the same issues.

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#83

Post by evultrole » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:12 PM UTC

Mvandenbergh wrote: post #41

csa wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The New Yorker is a classic example of higher level English that is far above the level of “random comments on the internet”. The typical New Yorker article is CEFRL C2 [1] or ILR 3/3+ [2]. Most internet comments are at CEFRL A2 or so, with some (often faulty) more thoughtful responses at B1 or B2. Said another way, your median high schooler can read and understand a typical internet comment, but the median high scho…

The CEFR is intended to measure the proficiency of foreign language learners and not measure the sophistication of native language speakers. Everyone that speaks English as a first language would pass a C2 level examination very easily. The standard ways to measure text complexity in English for native speakers are the Flesch-Kincaid readability and grade level tests. These depend on the length of words and on the nu…

There are a lot of problems with the way you approach this.

19% of Americans cannot read well enough to fill out a job application correctly.

The organization for economic cooperation and development found that 50% of U.S. adults can't read a book written at an 8th grade level, which is a statistic which obviously requires the estimate of "average American reading at a 7th or 8th grade level" be questioned heavily.

I've seen many estimates that the average high school student reads at a 6th grade level, and only 15% of the country is at an undergraduate level despite 30% of people having a degree.

I don't know where you get the idea that "grade level" relates to grades completed, but the average American is likely at a 5th grade reading level.

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#84

Post by atwebb » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:12 PM UTC

RegBarclay wrote: post #65

gffyfnhdv wrote: post #51

“Morgantown, West Virginia [...] We were in the heart of Appalachia“ BS! Morgantown is definitely not the heart of Appalachia: - It’s only 9 mi into WV! - has population that doubles during the school semester - has three or four federal agencies (FBI, NETL, NIOSH) - showered with federal and state largess (thank you senator Byrd) - has traffic jams worthy of a city with 10x it’s population - has one of my favorite r…

I agree. I'm originally from Charleston and have always said that it's not like the rest of WV. I'd say the real heart of Appalachia is Pikeville KY.

Well, Hillbilly Bear is the representative picture for Pikeville on Google Maps which is a vote in your favor.

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#85

Post by mbreese » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:16 PM UTC

danesparza wrote: post #80

ixtli wrote: post #63

“The perception that mountain folk like to be poor serves someone — but it’s not the poor mountain folk. The representation of Appalachia as all white is not only inaccurate, but it preserves a false and destructive ideal of imaginary “pure white stock.” Images of decay and absence allow those in power to turn away from a place that has been forgotten, but has not disappeared. The narrow ideas that circulate about th…

I'm assuming the commentary is about this book: https://www.amazon.com/Hillbilly-Elegy-Memoir-Family-Culture... This book is specifically written from one (white guy's) point of view -- somebody who grew up in the area. I'm not sure how the ideas that circulate about this place do active harm. Most (if not all) accounts I've heard about this place are personal accounts. The truth from people who have lived or travele…

It’s right in the first lines of the article.

“In the new book “Appalachian Reckoning,” dozens of mountain voices combine to talk back to J.D. Vance’s best-selling “Hillbilly Elegy.” Today, an exclusive story from its co-editor and a powerful essay (which involves Granny, her .38 pistol, and some coal trucks) excerpted from the book.”

Part of the point of the article (which was very good) was that there is not singular truth about a place a vast and varied as Appalachia. This new book seems to be much more than a commentary on Hillbilly Elegy.

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#86

Post by gffyfnhdv » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:21 PM UTC

gph wrote: post #79

gffyfnhdv wrote: post #51

“Morgantown, West Virginia [...] We were in the heart of Appalachia“ BS! Morgantown is definitely not the heart of Appalachia: - It’s only 9 mi into WV! - has population that doubles during the school semester - has three or four federal agencies (FBI, NETL, NIOSH) - showered with federal and state largess (thank you senator Byrd) - has traffic jams worthy of a city with 10x it’s population - has one of my favorite r…

Maybe the author meant more in a geographic sense. Like I've definitely heard people say Austin is in the heart of Texas, but they're mostly saying it's centrally-located in the state not that the city itself is a canonical representation of Texas culture at large. Edit: And while Morgantown is only 9 miles into WV, really the entire state of WV is the heart of Appalachia. No matter what part of the state you leave f…

It isn’t the geographic center of Appalachia either. Pittsburgh, 90mi north, is as much a part of Appalachia as Atlanta, almost 600 mi south.

I get it. The author uses “heart of” as an expression, like I use “literally” in a figurative sense.

But, it also gives me a sense that it betrays the authors almost complete ignorance of Appalachia; which the article purports to explain :S

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#87

Post by gffyfnhdv » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:22 PM UTC

panzagl wrote: post #78

gffyfnhdv wrote: post #51

“Morgantown, West Virginia [...] We were in the heart of Appalachia“ BS! Morgantown is definitely not the heart of Appalachia: - It’s only 9 mi into WV! - has population that doubles during the school semester - has three or four federal agencies (FBI, NETL, NIOSH) - showered with federal and state largess (thank you senator Byrd) - has traffic jams worthy of a city with 10x it’s population - has one of my favorite r…

The article also has pictures of Asheville and Berea, the former famous for it's ties to the super-rich, the latter a long time artists' colony. Was there even a picture of a trailer in the article? Or a church?

“... or a church” +1

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#88

Post by moorhosj » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:23 PM UTC

mieseratte wrote: post #73

moorhosj wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think his biggest miss was failing to connect the region to the rest of the country. He could have easily compared Appalachia to Rust Belt cities facing urban decay but never made the connection. It could have made the story of the region more approachable to more people. It seemed so obvious to me how the areas are linked by economic circumstances, environmental degradation, poor education levels, distinct culture…

> He could have easily compared Appalachia to Rust Belt cities facing urban decay but never made the connection. Did you and I read the same book? Most of this story is occurring in the Rust Belt[0], in Middletown, Ohio[1]. He discusses the mass Appalachian flight into Rust Belt towns and the mixing and clashing of culture. If anything, I'm glad the author kept things largely, as the subtitle would imply, a memoir of…

I think we read the same book. I don’t really think of Middletown as a Rust Belt city. It’s a town of 50,000 people. I am talking about big cities like Detroit, Milwaukee, Chicago, Cleveland and smaller ones like Youngstown and Erie.

As someone who lives in one of those cities, it seemed like a clear correlation could have been made. It was chance to unite a rural and an urban problem across race and I thought it was a missed opportunity. I still enjoyed the book, but think it is even more powerful when read in tandem with a book like Evicted [1] that views the problem from another perspective.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Evicted-Poverty-Profit-American-City/...

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#89

Post by gffyfnhdv » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:25 PM UTC

RegBarclay wrote: post #65

gffyfnhdv wrote: post #51

“Morgantown, West Virginia [...] We were in the heart of Appalachia“ BS! Morgantown is definitely not the heart of Appalachia: - It’s only 9 mi into WV! - has population that doubles during the school semester - has three or four federal agencies (FBI, NETL, NIOSH) - showered with federal and state largess (thank you senator Byrd) - has traffic jams worthy of a city with 10x it’s population - has one of my favorite r…

I agree. I'm originally from Charleston and have always said that it's not like the rest of WV. I'd say the real heart of Appalachia is Pikeville KY.

Btw, I’m not from Appalachia, I just did a post-doc at WVU.

Beautiful state and people.

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#90

Post by Mvandenbergh » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:28 PM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #54

Mvandenbergh wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CEFR is intended to measure the proficiency of foreign language learners and not measure the sophistication of native language speakers. Everyone that speaks English as a first language would pass a C2 level examination very easily. The standard ways to measure text complexity in English for native speakers are the Flesch-Kincaid readability and grade level tests. These depend on the length of words and on the nu…

> Everyone that speaks English as a first language would pass a C2 level examination very easily. This is almost exactly equivalent to saying that an average ten year old can read the New Yorker. A ten year old already has their native language down, the rules of grammar and syntax, the accent, the vocabulary, the capacity to discriminate between words with the same denotation but different connotations. There are te…

>This is almost exactly equivalent to saying that an average ten year old can read the New Yorker.

It is not because it is fundamentally incorrect to say that the New Yorker is a C2 level text.

The CEFR is not intended as a scale to measure the complexity of written text for native speakers and/or readers of a language, it is intended as a four part (listening, reading, speaking, writing) assessment scale of the overall language abilities of people. At most, one could say that a text was consistent with what would be expected of a successful CEFR C2 candidate in the reading portion of the test.

One of the reasons that you cannot use the CEFR to characterise the proficiency of native speakers is that it assumes that you can understand texts of a similar complexity in your native language. Most such assessments are given to educated people, usually adults, so the texts reflect that.

Yes, there are people who are not highly proficient by the standards of a native speaker at reading and particularly writing in their native language. Who knows, I may be wrong to think that they would easily pass the written portion of a CEFR test, certainly they would smash the oral portions.

However the CEFR tests are fundamentally not designed to assess quality of education for native speakers. You could shoehorn them into that role but we already have other measures of language ability (in the US often calibrated to grade level) that are specifically designed to measure this.