Introducing a new HTML element – welcome • Hacker News Board

Re: Introducing a new HTML element – welcome <clippy>

#81

Post by teh_klev » Thu, Jun 13, 2019, 1:38 PM UTC

jl6 wrote: post #28

Unlike the author, I do not think is a good idea. Elements are supposed to express semantics, but this just suggests behaviour. Not very descriptive behaviour either - since when does actual real-life toast smoothly rise and fall again? Possibly from the ceiling or coming in from the side? Why not just call it ? Or even better, don’t add anything - it’s surely just a that needs styling and animating with existing CSS…

> since when does actual real-life toast smoothly rise and fall again?

Perhaps the inspiration came from the Sunbeam Radiant Control toaster:

https://youtu.be/1OfxlSG6q5Y

Unlike modern toasters which rudely attempt to catapult your toast into orbit, the Sunbeam gracefully and almost silently presents your toast with the love and care it deserves.

Re: Introducing a new HTML element – welcome <clippy>

#82

Post by 013a » Thu, Jun 13, 2019, 1:42 PM UTC

Someone who knows more and is more involved with all of this stuff should consider creating a site that documents all of these times Chrome has either actively broken standards (versus just "not being up to date", which every browser is guilty of and more alright) or actively pushed new standards seeking to strongarm other browsers into support. It would be very valuable to have a clear list as evidence.

Re: Introducing a new HTML element – welcome <clippy>

#83

Post by dccoolgai » Thu, Jun 13, 2019, 1:42 PM UTC

giancarlostoro wrote: post #16

moreira wrote: post #13

The person writing this has to repeat frequently that they're OK with the element; it's quite funny how hard they try not to upset people. But their view of the situation is completely correct; just because this one feature might be useful (heck, when Microsoft dumped XMLHttpRequest on us that was incredible too), doesn't change the fact that we're now living in a web where Google does whatever it wants, adds whateve…

I have been repeating the Chrome is the new IE meme for the last few years. I even had a boss that only cared about our code working on Chrome and would lose it when I was demoing / developing from FireFox. I only ever demoed in Chrome just to feed that illusion that I was adhering to Chrome but I honestly dont see anything special or better and I still made sure it behaved and worked the same in both. I know people…

I don't really agree with the "Chrome is the new IE" sentiment. They participate in the Web Standards process the same as anyone else. That their voice has different gravity in the process due to the fact that they are often the ones pushing the standards forward isn't something they should be compared to IE for. Devs old enough to recall the halcyon days of IE know it was quite different...

Re: Introducing a new HTML element – welcome <clippy>

#84

Post by 013a » Thu, Jun 13, 2019, 1:45 PM UTC

moreira wrote: post #13

The person writing this has to repeat frequently that they're OK with the element; it's quite funny how hard they try not to upset people. But their view of the situation is completely correct; just because this one feature might be useful (heck, when Microsoft dumped XMLHttpRequest on us that was incredible too), doesn't change the fact that we're now living in a web where Google does whatever it wants, adds whateve…

There's a difference between now and the 90s/00s. And its worse now.

At least Microsoft's overarching goal was just to get developers to use their platform, by making their platform as useful as possible (even if many of the changes were ultimately misguided).

With Google, there's some of this, but there's also some very clear "we're an ads company and we want the ad experience on Chrome to favor us as much as possible, without regard for the user."

Re: Introducing a new HTML element – welcome <clippy>

#85

Post by martin-adams » Thu, Jun 13, 2019, 1:48 PM UTC

I find it interesting that part of the reasoning for the is this:

"Many libraries in a variety of frameworks implement a version of toast (see research), but the web has no built-in API to address the use case." [1]

One thing I would love to see as a browser handled web standard is the cookie notice and gdpr opt-in for a given web page. Every European site has a requirement to include that if they use cookies or ask for personal data, but there is no method of making it a web experience across the web.

Unless I can do this of course:

  
    Accept cookies

[1] https://github.com/jackbsteinberg/std-toast

Re: Introducing a new HTML element – welcome <clippy>

#86

Post by organsnyder » Thu, Jun 13, 2019, 1:49 PM UTC

CodinM wrote: post #4

...I do not need more new age HTML tags. If doesn't by default make a toast, it's useless. If I need to style it, I'll just make a or and do my thing.

That's fine if you're just worried about visual representation. But when you want to provide semantic meaning—for the visually impaired, search engine bots, and other non-traditional users—you want to convey more meaning than a div or span alone.

Of course, there are other ways (such as ARIA attributes) to accomplish this.

Re: Introducing a new HTML element – welcome <clippy>

#87

Post by tln » Thu, Jun 13, 2019, 1:55 PM UTC

Tinfoilhat666 wrote: post #21

Google also proposes a new toggle switch control element for html. A lot of new stuff coming from Google. Will Safari and Firefox give up? https://discourse.wicg.io/t/proposal-a-toggle-switch-control...

The element should be implemented this way as well.

Re: Introducing a new HTML element – welcome <clippy>

#88

Post by tannhaeuser » Thu, Jun 13, 2019, 1:56 PM UTC

gsnedders wrote: post #64

tannhaeuser wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a difference though: when Firefox was launched, it was still possible to develop a browser from scratch (like Opera was doing back then), and hence lively competition. Nowadays, with WHATWG HTML's feature creep (the HTML "living standard" spec alone weighing in at 1250 pages and 13.3 MB as a PDF, plus tens of CSS specs all over the place, and JavaScript a moving target), that's infeasible for even a nation-s…

(I worked at Opera a decade ago.) Opera wasn't a browser from scratch, though: Presto was older than KHTML (and WebKit, etc.). And really, starting from scratch ten years ago you'd just run into Presto's big failing: site compatibility! Websites rely on all kinds of asinine edge-case behaviour, and if you don't match the majority behaviour, users will leave your browser for your competitors (and site compatibility wa…

Major browser dev teams rewriting components over year-long periods of carefully planned integration points (with Mozilla even introducing a new programming language along the way) is hardly telling anything about the viability of developing a browser from scratch. Given the powers-that-be in so-called "web standards", by the time you've got anything to show odds are it'll be obsolete.

What would be helpful is if the whole web stack could be organized into profiles (eg. things working without JavaScript, without CSS "4" features, etc.), but WHATWG dismissed the idea of HTML/CSS versions or device profiles proposed by MS (hell they even can't be bothered to version their "living standard" specs). And W3C could start to give formal semantics for CSS (which is kindof "implementing" and verifying the spec) rather than prose about dozens of layout models in an untyped ad-hoc syntax. That is the role of standard bodies, not to lead us into a way-of-no-return for the benefit of very, very few people.

Re: Introducing a new HTML element – welcome <clippy>

#89

Post by dosy » Thu, Jun 13, 2019, 1:56 PM UTC

If there's a shouldn't there be a first? Or a ? These are ancient and ubiquitous UI elements that people need to code themselves.

I have not thought about it much but my feeling is why do we need any of these? Can't we just use web components?

And another thing, there's a lot of traffic to CDNs serving popular JS frameworks, when are CDNs serving libraries of UI components (such as web components) going to become commonplace?

Re: Introducing a new HTML element – welcome <clippy>

#90

Post by geezerjay » Thu, Jun 13, 2019, 1:57 PM UTC

richthegeek wrote: post #43

geezerjay wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not just call it ? In Android land, a "toast" is a particular implementation of a notification. https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/ui/notifiers/toas...

So if nothing else it's shockingly bad semantics. If Android called them Turds, would that be any better or worse semantically?

A "toast" means a few words of salutation. That's the purpose of the Toast UI element. A user requests an action, the action returns a successful response, the user receives a message consisting of a few words announcing the success.

Just because you are oblivious to the concept it doesn't mean it's bad. It just means you need to learn something before blindly asserting that stuff you don't know and are not familiar with is for some reason comparable to dog shit.