Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity • Hacker News Board

Re: Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

#81

Post by maxxxxx » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 2:55 PM UTC

astura wrote: post #73

maxxxxx wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“At one time, the argument was made that having them perform for crowds was necessary to keep them from going crazy.” I think that’s actually a valid argument if you keep something in captivity. When you put humans in jail it’s also better to give them something to do instead of just having them sit around. Freedom is still the best option though.

This study seems to show that training by humans to perform in shows had a negative effect on juvenile orcas. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4997274/ >From 1979 to 1980, however, we were able to interact with juvenile orcas in an unstructured way at San Diego’s SeaWorld facility. We observed in the animals what appeared to be pranks, tests of trust, limited use of tactical deception, emotional self-cont…

Interesting. Sounds like they hate that kind of work. Or maybe it makes them more competitive.

Re: Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

#82

Post by JoeAltmaier » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 2:58 PM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #80

braythwayt wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up with zoos and aquariums, and I have fond memories of them. But of course, I wasn't kept in one. And furthermore... Zoos and aquariums are not nature. They are exhibits in a kind of museum. If we want people to see nature, we have to preserve actual nature and encourage people to visit it. Visiting a zoo is not visiting nature, and I personally worry that equivocating the two is dangerous. I would not want p…

What do you think about national parks? I've been to a few and .. I dunno. I find it weird we pay to get into a federal park. I feel like the money exchange encourages them to advertise passes, and draws in more people. These parks are often overcrowded with so many people filling up parking lots to see nature. When you start building paths and roads and hiring rangers, you do make it safer for people to see these gr…

Isn't it inevitable? The population grows, but the national parks don't get any bigger.

Re: Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

#83

Post by djsumdog » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 2:59 PM UTC

blakesterz wrote: post #4

"Monday's vote notably impacts Marineland, the Niagara Falls amusement park and zoo that is considered the last Canadian park committed to keeping cetaceans in captivity." Wow, so they passed a national law that essentially targets just a single park? How often does that happen anywhere? (I know the back story but I never knew Marineland was the only place... not saying this is wrong or right, just surprised)

This has been a growing issue ever since documentaries like Blackfish came out. Awareness of how these particular creatures are treated has led a lot of existing parks to either close down or pivot to other attractions and conservation efforts.

Even in the US, Seaworld has decided to phase out whales and try to push other attractions, due to shifts in public opinion. I have a feeling other US aquariums, like Chicago, will likely go the same route and not replace or breed their current dolphin/whales populations.

Re: Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

#84

Post by codezero » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 3:03 PM UTC

spookware wrote: post #56

So how do people now see whales or dolphins?

Go to a coastal area. Optionally bring binoculars. It’s free, and a great way to see the creatures in their natural habitat behaving naturally.

Re: Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

#85

Post by codezero » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 3:06 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #64

diveanon wrote: post #58

I believe it will one day be possible to use AI techniques to communicate directly with these animals. I have often thought about running whale song through a RNN and broadcasting underwater to listen for responses. We don't need to go to other planets to find intelligent nonhuman life, it is already here and we are wiping them out and enslaving them. Our grandchildren will learn about this genocide in the same way w…

I'm not so sure. Big brain not the same as 'intelligent'. A story: every year a Japanese dog food company goes to a certain island lagoon where dolphins migrate to reproduce. They net and kill thousands and take them away. Each year some dolphins escape, inevitably. They swim around for a year, and then the next year come back (with many other dolphins) to the lagoon, and likely get netted and killed. Didn't they rem…

If you spend some time, I bet you can think of lots of reasons a creature might return to the same place. Many humans engage in self defeating behavior, should they be made into dog food, or should we empathise with them?

Re: Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

#86

Post by Mikeb85 » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 3:07 PM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #80

braythwayt wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up with zoos and aquariums, and I have fond memories of them. But of course, I wasn't kept in one. And furthermore... Zoos and aquariums are not nature. They are exhibits in a kind of museum. If we want people to see nature, we have to preserve actual nature and encourage people to visit it. Visiting a zoo is not visiting nature, and I personally worry that equivocating the two is dangerous. I would not want p…

What do you think about national parks? I've been to a few and .. I dunno. I find it weird we pay to get into a federal park. I feel like the money exchange encourages them to advertise passes, and draws in more people. These parks are often overcrowded with so many people filling up parking lots to see nature. When you start building paths and roads and hiring rangers, you do make it safer for people to see these gr…

Can't speak for National Parks in the US, but in Canada they're quite well protected. Sure, Banff, Jasper and attractions along the highway are built up (it's kind of the point; have easily accessible attractions which bring in revenue to pay for real conservation).

But once you get into the backcountry, its pristine wilderness, with a good number of wild animals. We've certainly been more successful at protecting bears, wolves, mountain lions and numerous prey animals, than any other country on earth.

Re: Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

#87

Post by Muha_ » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 3:07 PM UTC

Yes, it painful for me to look at animals in narrow cages where they slowly go mad whith monotony. (next - by the Thanos voice) But in general I can't understand the logic. In the wild, the animal has hard life. It will sooner or later be injured, sick, starving, and even eaten alive. But these sufferings are considered as normal because they are "natural". In the well-maintained zoo, the animals eat, sleep, and a bit bored, but this sufferings are considered as unacceptable. For billions of years, animals suffered for a reason: it was evolution. Now biological evolution is complete because it is displaced by the evolution of civilization. Why do animals have to suffer in wild nature now? It may happen that our descendants will look at humanism towards animals completely different: allowing animals to live in the wild will be considered a crime (like living children unattended).

Re: Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

#88

Post by braythwayt » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 3:08 PM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #80

braythwayt wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up with zoos and aquariums, and I have fond memories of them. But of course, I wasn't kept in one. And furthermore... Zoos and aquariums are not nature. They are exhibits in a kind of museum. If we want people to see nature, we have to preserve actual nature and encourage people to visit it. Visiting a zoo is not visiting nature, and I personally worry that equivocating the two is dangerous. I would not want p…

What do you think about national parks? I've been to a few and .. I dunno. I find it weird we pay to get into a federal park. I feel like the money exchange encourages them to advertise passes, and draws in more people. These parks are often overcrowded with so many people filling up parking lots to see nature. When you start building paths and roads and hiring rangers, you do make it safer for people to see these gr…

I think that National Parks are necessary AND I think that wild, untamed and unexploited spaces are also necessary. The tradeoffs for building parks are challenging, but there is some logic behind them.

I also think you need "parkland" at all levels. here in Canada's GTA, we have areas managed by the the Toronto Recreation and Conservation Authority, and they try their best to preserve nature while managing access.

I belong to several MTB clubs that work with them, and they to put guardrails in place. We can't dig trails without studying the effect on the habitat first, trails are regularly closed for regeneration, they prohibit night riding to protect nocturnal behaviour, &c.

Re: Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

#89

Post by braythwayt » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 3:10 PM UTC

Mikeb85 wrote: post #86

djsumdog wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think about national parks? I've been to a few and .. I dunno. I find it weird we pay to get into a federal park. I feel like the money exchange encourages them to advertise passes, and draws in more people. These parks are often overcrowded with so many people filling up parking lots to see nature. When you start building paths and roads and hiring rangers, you do make it safer for people to see these gr…

Can't speak for National Parks in the US, but in Canada they're quite well protected. Sure, Banff, Jasper and attractions along the highway are built up (it's kind of the point; have easily accessible attractions which bring in revenue to pay for real conservation). But once you get into the backcountry, its pristine wilderness, with a good number of wild animals. We've certainly been more successful at protecting be…

My favourite National Park is Five Fathoms Marine Park. Where else do you get to dive pristine shipwrecks in clear freshwater?

(Bring a dry suit, or prepare to put on every scrap of neoprene you can beg, borrow, or steal. Georgian Bay is damn cold.)

https://www.pc.gc.ca/en/amnc-nmca/on/fathomfive

Re: Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

#90

Post by JoeAltmaier » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 3:11 PM UTC

codezero wrote: post #85

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not so sure. Big brain not the same as 'intelligent'. A story: every year a Japanese dog food company goes to a certain island lagoon where dolphins migrate to reproduce. They net and kill thousands and take them away. Each year some dolphins escape, inevitably. They swim around for a year, and then the next year come back (with many other dolphins) to the lagoon, and likely get netted and killed. Didn't they rem…

If you spend some time, I bet you can think of lots of reasons a creature might return to the same place. Many humans engage in self defeating behavior, should they be made into dog food, or should we empathise with them?

Without communicating with others to warn them of any danger. So, no dolphin cares about that? If they don't care, should we?

I think its pretty cut-and-dried, dolphins are nowhere near as bright as humans.