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macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

developer.apple.com

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Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#81

Post by TehCorwiz »

markstos wrote: post #46
new_realist wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A hypervisor is not exactly a container. Definitely not in the Linux sense. It may be more secure, but it is also slower. Further, there's no decent solution for shipping a macOS container image to run in a VM. Linux, yes, Mac, no. Finally, good luck getting your virtualized macOS app to interact reasonably with your main OS (no drag and drop, no OpenGL, etc.). I would rather chroot.

How much slower?

Measurably slower than a LXC container, but still much faster than a full VM.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#82

Post by drivingmenuts »

ken wrote: post #76

Not surprising at all. It's become clear that what they've been doing with iOS all along is bootstrapping a new operating system. They started with Unix, not because Unix was optimal for what they wanted to do, but it's what they had and it worked well enough. Copland and Taligent and the rest failed because of Second-System Effect, which Apple was smart enough to avoid. (As RMS wrote in 1983, "Unix is not my ideal s…

A different solution, and possibly better, would be to run Unix/Linux in a VM rather than worrying about it being native in the system.

If I'm not mistaken, current best practice is to somewhat isolate third-party developer software anyway, using homebrew, a VM or other solutions (not sure about Docker - don't use it).

I can see where it would be an issue with developing for MacOS or iOS, but third-party web development doesn't really need anything that is installed on the system, and in my experience, it's actually better not to base it on the MacOS default packages.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#83

Post by drivingmenuts »

cprayingmantis wrote: post #66
snowoutside wrote: post #51

With brew as the de-facto package manager for macOS this is a great move. Having Python and Ruby bundled with macOS is confusing when trying to install "regular" versions of the software through brew or other methods. Because the default installation can't updated without updating the OS, the system versions are not useful for most developers.

The down side to that is that ruby is currently required to install Homebrew.

There will be a .pkg for that, if there isn't already.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#84

Post by thristian »

ken wrote: post #76

Not surprising at all. It's become clear that what they've been doing with iOS all along is bootstrapping a new operating system. They started with Unix, not because Unix was optimal for what they wanted to do, but it's what they had and it worked well enough. Copland and Taligent and the rest failed because of Second-System Effect, which Apple was smart enough to avoid. (As RMS wrote in 1983, "Unix is not my ideal s…

> ...just as they port them to Microsoft Windows.

Just as they ported them to MacOS Classic back in the day.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#86

Post by rgovostes »

ken wrote: post #76

Not surprising at all. It's become clear that what they've been doing with iOS all along is bootstrapping a new operating system. They started with Unix, not because Unix was optimal for what they wanted to do, but it's what they had and it worked well enough. Copland and Taligent and the rest failed because of Second-System Effect, which Apple was smart enough to avoid. (As RMS wrote in 1983, "Unix is not my ideal s…

I'm sure that others here are well familiar with other officially certified UNIX operating systems[1], but given many widely used Unix-like systems not on the list, I don't think Apple gains anything from the certification. Moreover, it probably is deleterious, forcing them to adhere to system designs that made sense in the 70s and 80s.

1: https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#87

Post by SeanLuke »

arvinsim wrote: post #52
Waterluvian wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Python and pip just being there is a huge advantage for newbies. I really think that part of programming is constantly ignored because all the decision-makers are not newbies.

Learning how to install Python and Pip should be part of the learning process for newbies.

I'm sure that my kids will certainly love to hear that they have to learn Unix in order to learn a build system in order to try out Python. It's all part of the "learning process for newbies."

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#89

Post by SeanLuke »

bshipp wrote: post #59
arvinsim wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Learning how to install Python and Pip should be part of the learning process for newbies.

Installing the version you need when you want to run a script is arguably easier for newbies than all the error messages arising from an out of date implementation originally included with an OS. it's not like installing python is any more complicated than any other piece of software that needs to be installed. Windows users have had no choice but to do that for decades.

> Windows users have had no choice but to do that for decades.

You're saying this like it's a good thing.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#90

Post by AceJohnny2 »

selectodude wrote: post #55
rgovostes wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MacPorts has or had semi-official status. It was hosted by macOS Forge, which was an official Apple site that included other projects such as XQuartz. I'm unclear on the current status.

Its a shame MacPorts kind of died on the vine. It just seems so much cleaner and less hacky than Homebrew.

It's not dead! [1] I use it daily, and it's working just fine. For example, check out the (centralized) list [2] of Ports files that define the packages. You can see it's pretty lively

But your perception that it's dead is certainly symptomatic of an issue for the project.

[1] yes yes Monty Python

[2] https://github.com/macports/macports-ports

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