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The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy

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Re: The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy

#81

Post by BlueTemplar »

lazyjones wrote: post #49
rebuilder wrote: post #13

You can ridicule the specifics, but the high-level idea here is spot on. Either you have to decouple economic growth from increased consumption of natural resources, or you have to find a way to have a stable society without economic growth. I see no reason to think the former is possible, so that leaves the latter. The alternative is some kind of calamity.

> the high-level idea here is spot on. Either you have to decouple economic growth from increased consumption of natural resources, or you have to find a way to have a stable society without economic growth That's just a narrow-minded false dilemma. There's a (for all practical purposes) infinite universe out there, we have plenty of resources to grow even if we stop recycling.

The rate of growth matters too : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20045380

Re: The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy

#82

Post by BlueTemplar »

dcolkitt wrote: post #9
m3nu wrote: post #2

Would be great, but human nature is to want more stuff, money and power. On the upside, many "new" sectors don't use natural resources, except human time. E.g. writing blog posts, social media management, doing marketing campaigns for Gucci. Growth in those sectors should be (mostly) easy on the planet.

> Would be great, but human nature is to want more stuff, money and power. A lot of HN lives in an upper-middle class first world bubble. Median global income is $2900 per year. That's less than $10 a day. For the vast majority of the world, economic growth isn't about "stuff, money and power". It's about escaping abject poverty. It's about reliable access to running water, electricity, shelter, and food.

Source? Last time I've checked global median income was closer to $365/year...

EDIT : Never mind, I must have confused it with the poverty line, and an old one to boot !

EDIT2 : Note though, that the costs of living, and especially of housing, are going to be wildly different depending on your location !

Re: The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy

#83

Post by BlueTemplar »

Barrin92 wrote: post #44

I'm pretty far on the left and used to be active in communist politics (little bit less exceptional here in Europe than across the pond), but I've always been very irritated by these degrowth movements, although a lot of this stuff came out of 'my' political tent. It's to me reminiscent of the 'deep ecology' folks, who don't pursue environmentalism with the goal of furthering human well-being, but have a quasi religi…

Degrowth has never been in the same "political tent" as "communism" (by which I assume you mean Marx/Engels-based socialism?)

The idea that human well-being is central, while nature is just a resource used to achieve abundance is completely opposite to the philosophy of the degrowth movement.

Re: The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy

#84

Post by BlueTemplar »

ralph84 wrote: post #8

What's stopping them? There's tons of empty land in the world. Go find a stream in the forest and live a sustenance-level life. Oh, they want everyone else to be miserable too.

That didn't work out too well for people that didn't want to own land in England...

Re: The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy

#85

Post by BlueTemplar »

> Families would perhaps have one car instead of three

That's cute. No, most families would own NO cars, like most families don't own an helicopter these days.

P.S.: I'm pretty sure that's already/still true today, if you consider the world rather than the richest countries.

P.P.S: And I'm pretty sure that it's only in USA that the idea of most families having three cars wouldn't be considered outrageous.

Re: The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy

#86

Post by [deleted] »

BlueTemplar wrote: post #82
dcolkitt wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would be great, but human nature is to want more stuff, money and power. A lot of HN lives in an upper-middle class first world bubble. Median global income is $2900 per year. That's less than $10 a day. For the vast majority of the world, economic growth isn't about "stuff, money and power". It's about escaping abject poverty. It's about reliable access to running water, electricity, shelter, and food.

Source? Last time I've checked global median income was closer to $365/year... EDIT : Never mind, I must have confused it with the poverty line, and an old one to boot ! EDIT2 : Note though, that the costs of living, and especially of housing, are going to be wildly different depending on your location !

[deleted]

Re: The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy

#87

Post by username444 »

rebuilder wrote: post #58
01100011 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you have to decouple economic growth from increased consumption of natural resources Hasn't technology generally been heading in this direction? It seems we are constantly doing more with less. If it keeps up, and we slowdown procreation, I see no reason why it won't drive resource usage down long term. I mean, I completely disagree with the premise that we must consume non-renewable resources to generate wealth, b…

You can only increase efficiency so far. I do agree that a reduction in population would result in lower resource usage, but that's an economic slowdown, i.e. the opposite of growth.

Isn't economic retraction the opposite of economic growth?

Re: The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy

#88

Post by fvdessen »

hannob wrote: post #59
01100011 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you have to decouple economic growth from increased consumption of natural resources Hasn't technology generally been heading in this direction? It seems we are constantly doing more with less. If it keeps up, and we slowdown procreation, I see no reason why it won't drive resource usage down long term. I mean, I completely disagree with the premise that we must consume non-renewable resources to generate wealth, b…

> Hasn't technology generally been heading in this direction? It seems we are constantly doing more with less Actually no, we haven't and we don't. Carbon emissions are still growing. Classic mistake: You're confusing relative and absolute reductions. We have reduced relative ecological impact a lot, but overall impact has been growing along the way.

Carbon emissions are decreasing in Europe despite economic growth. Nature is getting in better shape as well.

Re: The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy

#89

Post by smadge »

BrandonM wrote: post #33
smadge wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The size that ensures every person a comfortable lifestyle while maintaining a healthy and sustainable biosphere.

Is the human species every really comfortable?

Haha well at least we can make people more materially comfortable so they can focus on their spiritual, social, and existential discomfort.

Re: The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy

#90

Post by dTal »

devmunchies wrote: post #45

>Degrowth is now a buzz word in left-leaning and academic circles around the world Ted Kaczynski and other far-right thinkers (e.g. Pentti Linkola) have been advocating for shrinking the economy for decades. It’s not a left/right issue and one side doesn’t have a monopoly on anti-materialism.

I'm not sure how you characterize Kaczynski as far-right. He was an anarchist.
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