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I don't want to be a full-fullstack developer

artur-martsinkovskyi.github.io

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Re: I don't want to be a full-fullstack developer

#81

Post by marcus_holmes »

choeger wrote: post #80
marcus_holmes wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's your problem right there. Your frontend is not as different from your backend as dentristy is from neurosurgery. I'm not a neurosurgeon, or a dentist, but this doesn't strike me as true. Front-end dev uses totally different tools and languages, and a different set of design principles, than back-end dev. It didn't use to be this way, but it definitely is now. There's almost no cross-over in skills now, espec…

> totally different tools and languages do they, though? What's distinguishing JavaScript from, say, a poorly implemented lisp? What's the main difference between typescript and a poorly implemented ML? Syntax? Come on! There are maybe a handful of really different programming languages designs. And only three of them are really widespread. > There's almost no cross-over in skills now, especially with Elm-derived fro…

yeah, I bet if you talked to the average front-end dev and told them they spend all their time writing poorly-implemented lisp, they've have a few choice words to say about it ;)

From the CS point of view, sure, there are only a half-dozen languages. From the IT point of view, having a few years of experience dealing with the exact details of the "poor implementation of lisp" makes a massive difference in productivity and effectiveness.

There are also widely separate concerns between front-end and back-end. UI patterns is a whole discipline in itself. Deployment and CI, AWS vs DO, not to mention containers and swarms, is just a subset of one aspect of "dev ops" these days. There's also the entire subject of database design, of securing HTTP/S/2 traffic, data encryption schemes, logging strategies. It's endless, on both sides. And none of the skills are transferable. Knowing AWS doesn't help you implement a UI, and knowing React does nothing to help you design a database.

I dare you to try implementing a complex UI in React after learning FP, reading the docs and a "few days" ;)

But to get back to the analogy... I can easily see a neurosurgeon saying "teeth, they're just specialised bones! Give me a few days to brush up on the basics, and I'll have that wisdom tooth out in a jiffy" in the same manner.

Re: I don't want to be a full-fullstack developer

#82

Post by ThomW »

choeger wrote: post #41

> you don’t expect the dentist to cure your heart and neurosurgeon to fix your hemorrhoids. That's your problem right there. Your frontend is not as different from your backend as dentristy is from neurosurgery. If you think it is, you might lack some understanding of how things work. Tbh., whenever someone hails the specialization and how their particular field is so special, I hear them saying "I really do not want…

Front- and back-end are very different things. I’ve worked with some brilliant engineers who couldn’t make a serviceable UI to save their lives, never mind the intricacies of overall user experience.

I’ll balk at UI/UX people who can’t code, but I’ll stand by the value they can add to a project.

Re: I don't want to be a full-fullstack developer

#84

Post by dgzl »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #45
dgzl wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently was looking for new work. When trying to apply to Developer opportunities, I realized that recruiters largely didn't know what they were talking about. Many times I was told that my Computer Science degree, large school projects, personal projects such as random apps and maintaining an Arch Linux setup, awards such as winning 1st place in a Google Hackathon, several years of student work including iOS deve…

Holy, what region are you in? That definitely wouldn't happen over here in the Seattle area, not at top tier companies or even startups that know what they are doing.

This happened in the PDX area, so... Yeah.

Re: I don't want to be a full-fullstack developer

#85

Post by seanmcdirmid »

dgzl wrote: post #84
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holy, what region are you in? That definitely wouldn't happen over here in the Seattle area, not at top tier companies or even startups that know what they are doing.

This happened in the PDX area, so... Yeah.

Eh, Portland has always been a weird place, maybe coding bootcamps are taken more seriously down there than they are up here?

Re: I don't want to be a full-fullstack developer

#86

Post by gremlinsinc »

dgzl wrote: post #19
20years wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem that I have seen is most companies don't want to pay a skilled full-stack developer what they are worth. They think $100k is the going rate and unfortunately a lot of junior developers are calling themselves full-stack and jumping at that salary. Then the lines get blurred and the true value of a full-stack developer gets diminished.

I recently was looking for new work. When trying to apply to Developer opportunities, I realized that recruiters largely didn't know what they were talking about. Many times I was told that my Computer Science degree, large school projects, personal projects such as random apps and maintaining an Arch Linux setup, awards such as winning 1st place in a Google Hackathon, several years of student work including iOS deve…

When you graduated how familiar were you with Twitter Bootstrap, X popular framework (Rails / Laravel / Django), any experience using Vue or React?

My brother graduated 4 years ago (he's a stock boy now) with a degree in Digital Design and Development (Flash, PHP, JS, CSS, Adobe CS), he leans more frontend/graphics but never once was taught anything about CSS frameworks or bootstrap. I'm self-taught laravel dev since 2013, I've used vue, jquery, bootstrap, vuetify, bulma, tailwinds, on frontend even though backend is my strong suit.

I think the point I'm getting at is bootcamps teach exactly what companies need in terms of frameworks and 'hot ticket' skills. You could be a kick ass java developer after you graduate college but if you've never used Spring or Clojure or some other Java framework you're just useless to most companies.

Bootcamps also do quite a bit of bridge building with companies/recruiters to keep their job placements high, where most colleges wipe their hands after you get your diploma and it's on your own good graces that you find your first gig... 2-3 years in it gets way easier though.

Re: I don't want to be a full-fullstack developer

#87

Post by ohaideredevs »

johannes1234321 wrote: post #35
dominotw wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do you think developer salaries are so high? H1B visa limit?

Developer salaries are high across the globe (relative to local salaries)

This is absolutely true. In Eastern Europe, developers literally make 6-10x typical income, but that's because it's impossible to find say, a mechanical engineer job.

I do wonder if dev salaries are going to start declining though. Everyone semi-competent with a non-lucrative degree is trying to get into dev now. I am sure the MIT-grad stud with a 135 IQ and a 5 years - decade of experience @ FAANG jobs are safe.

As far as typical "senior" developers who can write LoB applications / web apps, I am not so sure - I think at best, salaries will stagnate.

Re: I don't want to be a full-fullstack developer

#88

Post by ellius »

lioeters wrote: post #61
ellius wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Architectural coherence is such an important part of software design. I agree with your point completely—you need specialists for deep, specific problems, but you also need people with a view of the entire system.

Great point, and I think it relates to the market need for a "full-stack developer", an all-around generalist who understands (more or less) the entire stack and areas of endeavor. It also made me think how, typically, the problem with "design by committee" is that it's often a mere collection of specialists, without the necessary generalists (those with an understanding of architectural coherence, system-level think…

This is actually discussed very intelligently in "The Mythical Man-Month." The author explains that large software projects have an inherent tension between coherence and efficiency. A small team maintains coherence, but cannot get the required amount of work done in a reasonable amount of time; a large team works faster at the expense of coherence. Balancing those two aspects effectively is what makes large projects successful.
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