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Men, commit to mentor women

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Re: Men, commit to mentor women

#81

Post by MrLeftHand »

apacheCamel wrote: post #76
MrLeftHand wrote: post #56

Well, this is where social media and social justice brought us. People are so afraid of each other that they actively try to barricade themselves in real life. We thought we are opening doors, but we are actually closing them, one by one. Instead of following a simple 'live and let live' rule, we are now actively hunting for the slightest mistakes and missteps. Humans can't be humans anymore, there is no room for err…

I think there are a lot of gives and takes here. People being "afraid" of each other seems a bit dramatic. I think this may be the first time many men in the workplace had to sit back and evaluate the things they say before they say them. This movement has shed light on some of the utterly repulsive behavior people have been getting away with for years, now people just ask you to think twice before telling a joke. If…

> People being "afraid" of each other seems a bit dramatic.

In universities and colleges people are afraid voicing their political opinion, or just disagreeing in general with the mainstream. Not just because they would meet lot of counter arguments, but actual physical violence and even getting expelled from school.

Nobody is defending sexual predators and abusive behaviour. But there is a clear bias towards men when it comes to accusations. You don't have to be a predator to say, or do something in a way where the other person will take it as abuse. You don't have to be a man either, but it would make much easier. Everybody can be in this situation. Just fail to identify a transgender person and use a wrong pronoun and you will find yourself in front of HR so fast that you won't have time to say sorry.

If a joke can get you in trouble so much that you even lose your job just because a woman's feelings were hurt, then there is a problem with the system. Is one person's feeling more important than another's life?

This whole situation is a slippery-slope as there will be always someone being offended by something.

I think the key is tolerance. Understanding that everybody makes mistakes. Nobody is perfect. And when they apologise we should stop the witch hunt. Also we should embrace differences between sexes and not trying blurring the lines.

Re: Men, commit to mentor women

#82

Post by AdamHede »

people calling it a sensible strategy or solid 'risk assessment' really surprises me.

You are to a large degree in charge of your risk. Proper, fullblown, 100% fabcricated accussations seems exceedingly rare. I've never seen any stats and the anecdotes I hear are often 3rd or 4rd degree.

Be a decent human being and you are probably still more likely to get struck by lightning or die in a car crash.

Meanwhile, the cost of walling yourself off from 50% of your colleagues (or as a manager, to avoid 50% of the workforce) seems like a very high cost to your career.

Re: Men, commit to mentor women

#83

Post by MrLeftHand »

pwinnski wrote: post #75
MrLeftHand wrote: post #56

Well, this is where social media and social justice brought us. People are so afraid of each other that they actively try to barricade themselves in real life. We thought we are opening doors, but we are actually closing them, one by one. Instead of following a simple 'live and let live' rule, we are now actively hunting for the slightest mistakes and missteps. Humans can't be humans anymore, there is no room for err…

The old status quo was horrible for women, but the current situation makes some men uncomfortable, so I guess that's worse? Or maybe changes are necessary, and the bad old days are still hanging on in the form of people failing to recognize how bad things were and still are for women.

It's not worse, it is the same but the other way around. Not every man is a sexist pig and not every woman is a saint.

But clearly women have more power over men (in this so called men's world) where they can easily accuse anyone and destroy their lives in an instant.

Both sexes have their good and bad side. We shouldn't let our guard down and favour one over the other.

How are things bad in western societies for women? Please give me examples. Where you have female leaders all around the place. If you were referring to the Middle East, I agree women are oppressed as hell over there.

Re: Men, commit to mentor women

#84

Post by [deleted] »

reboog711 wrote: post #52
midasz wrote: post #9

> Senior-level men are now far more hesitant to spend time with junior women than junior men across a range of basic work activities.3 They are: > 12x more likely to hesitate to have 1-on-1 meetings > 9x more likely to hesitate to travel together for work > 6x more likely to hesitate to have work dinners. I think a contributing factor is that harassment can ultimately be a he-said/she-said kind of deal. You hear horr…

> You hear horror stories about men being falsely accused and getting their lives ruined While I have heard these stories, they are all anecdotes that I wasn't able to verify. Can you give any real cases?

[deleted]

Re: Men, commit to mentor women

#85

Post by 0815test »

pwinnski wrote: post #80
0815test wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't know what OP said (or rather, mumbled out) about her body. From what OP states, it's reasonable to infer that they said "Your body is in my personal space, you're making me uncomfortable" or something to that effect . And then they got in trouble for that, which seems quite indefensible!

> my confused reply, which I didn't mean to say it loud but being exhausted it slipped part my filter and I mumbled it out loud, was cited as sexual harassment Whatever he said, he immediately apologized for it, and still to this day blames fatigue and confusion and says he didn't mean to say it out loud. So no, it is completely unreasonable to infer anything other than an inappropriate comment. There is not a real w…

That depends on what you mean by "inappropriate", of course. People say all sorts of things they don't mean to when they're made uncomfortable by something, and the line between "discomfort", "confusion" and "fatigue" is itself quite fuzzy. And yes, they apologized for it immediately afterwards - but apologies themselves can be strategically unwise, and leave one open to manipulative behavior in response to a perceived display of weakness. Their wife certainly didn't seem to think OP's behavior was inappropriate in the way you're implying, and she'd obviously care if it was!

All in all, I'm not sure why you seem to be willfully ignoring the whole part where OP explains what prompted their remark (whatever that might have been) in the first place; whether intentional or not, it seems that a somewhat "inappropriate" situation had already occurred by that time.

Re: Men, commit to mentor women

#86

Post by peterangular »

anonymous5133 wrote: post #13

This was similar to the reaction of the Americans with Disabilities act. After the ADA was passed, the amount of disabled people employed actually decreased. Employers know that hiring an ADA employee would potentially result in an ADA lawsuit, so they avoided hiring them. It was the old well intention law with unintended consequences.

Yep - which is why the exclusion arguments are very uncomfortable truths. When you boil it down, this whole backlash to sexual assault is just risk to a corporation and it's people... and it's worthless risk when it comes to the bottom-line which is what actually matters at the end of the day (not saying this is right - I think it's horrid!)

When it comes to your livelihood, businesses and people alike will do everything they can to cut-out superfluous risk with no reward. Thinking otherwise is assuming people don't operate in their best interest (they _almost always_ do).

I hate to admit I think this backlash will end up hurting women in the workplace. I think it's going to exclude folks even more than before =(

Re: Men, commit to mentor women

#87

Post by apacheCamel »

MrLeftHand wrote: post #81
apacheCamel wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are a lot of gives and takes here. People being "afraid" of each other seems a bit dramatic. I think this may be the first time many men in the workplace had to sit back and evaluate the things they say before they say them. This movement has shed light on some of the utterly repulsive behavior people have been getting away with for years, now people just ask you to think twice before telling a joke. If…

> People being "afraid" of each other seems a bit dramatic. In universities and colleges people are afraid voicing their political opinion, or just disagreeing in general with the mainstream. Not just because they would meet lot of counter arguments, but actual physical violence and even getting expelled from school. Nobody is defending sexual predators and abusive behaviour. But there is a clear bias towards men whe…

>You don't have to be a predator to say, or do something in a way where the other person will take it as abuse.

No you don't and this is a problem. Anybody can say something abusive but that doesn't make it right.

>Just fail to identify a transgender person and use a wrong pronoun and you will find yourself in front of HR so fast that you won't have time to say sorry.

Out of all the transgender people I know, they will correct you if you fail to use the correct pronoun OR they will let you know first, that way you don't feel awkward. It is up to you then to follow through with it.

I think there are a vocal few who are super easily offended and too many people are focusing on them. They don't make up the general populace. Just like how not every guy is out to make crude jokes and be offensive. It always seems like the "not every guy" defensive always comes up but it is unfathomable that not everyone is as easily offended as this vocal minority.

Re: Men, commit to mentor women

#88

Post by RandomInteger4 »

throwaway84538 wrote: post #66
reboog711 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You hear horror stories about men being falsely accused and getting their lives ruined While I have heard these stories, they are all anecdotes that I wasn't able to verify. Can you give any real cases?

Throwaway for obvious reasons. I was let go due to "financial reasons" because a co-worker brought up her ass to me and my confused reply, which I didn't mean to say it loud but being exhausted it slipped part my filter and I mumbled it out loud, was cited as sexual harassment. I immediately apologized either way. She shook her ass at me despite us having no real relationship, me being married, her being 10 years you…

Why was this comment flagged?

Re: Men, commit to mentor women

#90

Post by MrLeftHand »

apacheCamel wrote: post #87
MrLeftHand wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People being "afraid" of each other seems a bit dramatic. In universities and colleges people are afraid voicing their political opinion, or just disagreeing in general with the mainstream. Not just because they would meet lot of counter arguments, but actual physical violence and even getting expelled from school. Nobody is defending sexual predators and abusive behaviour. But there is a clear bias towards men whe…

>You don't have to be a predator to say, or do something in a way where the other person will take it as abuse. No you don't and this is a problem. Anybody can say something abusive but that doesn't make it right. >Just fail to identify a transgender person and use a wrong pronoun and you will find yourself in front of HR so fast that you won't have time to say sorry. Out of all the transgender people I know, they wi…

>No you don't and this is a problem. Anybody can say something abusive but that doesn't make it right.

Of course it doesn't make it right, but it doesn't make it a valid reason to drag that person through the dirt. Especially if something was said between the accused and a third person and the accuser was just eavesdropping on the conversation.

>I think there are a vocal few who are super easily offended and too many people are focusing on them. They don't make up the general populace. Just like how not every guy is out to make crude jokes and be offensive. It always seems like the "not every guy" defensive always comes up but it is unfathomable that not everyone is as easily offended as this vocal minority.

I agree, we are talking about minorities on both sides. Not every man is an abusive predator and not every woman is going to be a snowflake, who will cry abuse over everything a man says.

But as my first comment stated, the problem is that our current society caters to them. They are the ones who will go great lengths to ruin peoples lives, even when it turns out the accusations were false. They pressure companies into firing people. They harass, threaten, deplatform and dox people without thinking about the damages they cause. And when you work with a person like this (and you might not know this) you will be the target very fast, even for the slightest mistake.

And don't forget the bias towards genders. We talk about biases towards women for countless hours, but when someone brings up the biases towards men, that person is kicked out of the conversation. A level playing field goes both ways.

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