Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

China’s new ‘social credit system’

nypost.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 109 posts

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#81

Post by dsfyu404ed »

cyphar wrote: post #17
johnchristopher wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now, that's Orwellian. As described in the book. It's not the cameras, the government agents in the shadows or the spying technology... It's the end result of everyone spying on each other that made the world of 1984 so inescapable to Winston.

I would argue the key aspect of something being Orwellian is the redefinition of language such that arguments against the government's position cannot be made anymore. The idea of people being spied on by their neighbours in 1984 comes from real-world examples that Orwell was drawing on at the time (the Hitler Youth and the purges under Stalin). While it is very dystopian, I would classify it as being extreme totalit…

I would say that having people feel that it is acceptable to inform on their neighbors is a key element of a proper totalitarian society.

This is why I routinely go off on people when they suggest calling the cops (or some other external authority) over petty differences. I don't want to see that kind of behavior left unchallenged let alone normalized.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#82

Post by neffy »

rayiner wrote: post #38
chasd00 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no good idea inside constant surveillance.

Our successful societies originated in a state of constant (public) surveillance. When you do something in public in small town USA, people see you and that information ripples through the informal social networks. Historically, institutions like churches and schools facilitated exchange of that information. Those things breakdown when you have Chinese cities with millions of people, most of whom just moved there fro…

Not really. A simplistic counterargument would be that our "successful" societies originated when we were able to escape the constant surveillance of the village, into the more permissive environment of relatively anonymous cities. And while it´s obviously more complex than that, at one level our entire species history could be labelled as a continuing attempt to escape the trap that is fascism/centralised control.

But more importantly, in a village there is at least some sense of a two way flow of information, citizens interact with each other and their leaders - albeit occasionally at the end of a sharp dagger.

There is no interaction in constant surveillance, there is no appeal. Obey orders, no matter how stupid or nonsensical they are, imposed by somebody with no local knowledge. The history of that society does not end up getting written by its perpetrators.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#83

Post by dsfyu404ed »

beardedwizard wrote: post #75
aardshark wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why on earth would you walk a couple of blocks to cross the street? Why on earth would you commend this behaviour? I appreciate that my judgement of this behaviour depends on the street, but from my experience of Tokyo, the streets are not particularly wide, or busy.

Because that is where the crosswalk is.

That's no different than saying "because the law is the law".

If it is possible to cross sufficiently safely without walking to the cross walk why walk to the cross walk?

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#84

Post by raxxorrax »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #53
wincy wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you really upset the ruling elite, like Julian Assange, in which case the west will make your life a living hell.

Assange published, with zero redaction, military assets. The journalists who wrote about it and activists who protested surrounding it were not jailed. They didn’t have their credit scores dinged. They were allowed to go about their peaceful dissent. Cleaner example would have been Snowden, who peacefully dissented and responsibly disclosed his leaks. But even then, the comparison would be wrong. Snowden is a single…

> Assange published, with zero redaction, military assets

And he published information about war crimes. Sorry to mention it, but I prefer to stay on topic. That is on the military and I don't see why it should get any form of protection here.

edit: To clarify: The military has been traitorous to their own people, therefore to itself and is fully responsible for anything that happened.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#85

Post by wyattpeak »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #67
wyattpeak wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is a human right, outside of culture? Unless you're religious, what could it possibly be? There are rights we consider so important that they all but transcend culture, but that "all but" is critical. It's only a matter of consensus, not celestial fiat.

Pretty much every culture has some notion of a right to due process, personal freedom and personal property. The people of rural Afghanistan may draw the lines in different places than we do but these rights in some capacity are fundamental to all human civilizations.

Personal freedom and especially personal property are only shared cross-culturally, if at all, in the barest of forms. Many African cultures look very negatively on the idea that ones possessions can rightfully be denied to those in need of them unless it will cause you yourself substantial harm. To a lesser degree, many cultures place social cohesion above individual liberty in terms of importance. This actually seems one of the rarer rights historically and globally.

I don't see how due process could be universal - it can scarcely even exist outside of bureaucracy. In any simpler system of government the process is "the most powerful person decides". Heck, rule of law only came into being what, 4000 years ago?

I think they're odd choices though, because there are much stronger cases for things like right to life. But I still don't see how they can be anything but cultural. Where would they come from? What is the font of rights?

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#86

Post by rayiner »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #83
beardedwizard wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that is where the crosswalk is.

That's no different than saying "because the law is the law". If it is possible to cross sufficiently safely without walking to the cross walk why walk to the cross walk?

The traffic planners put the crosswalks where they are in order to balance convenience for pedestrians with smooth flow of traffic. Jaywalking subverts the deliberate design and overall efficiency b

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#87

Post by [deleted] »

rayiner wrote: post #31

The implementation is somewhat disconcerting, but I’m not sure the underlying policy isn’t a good idea. Culture matters. When I go to Tokyo and see people walking a couple of blocks to cross the street (there isn’t necessarily a cross walk on every block), or carrying their litter with them, versus what I see in say New York, I’m astounded. Similarly for the fact that nobody has ever asked me for a bribe in the US, v…

[deleted]

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#88

Post by archagon »

Millennium wrote: post #69

In a society that does not put enough pressure on people to grow up and function, it is tempting to look at this as a possible solution. Coupling it to government power, though, is an outright horror. Any social credit system needs to be run independently, by society, not by the state (not least because of people's unfortunate tendency to remember that there is a difference).

> grow up and function

What exactly do you mean by this?

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#89

Post by linyu0219 »

the media bias score of nypost base on adfontesmedia is only 20,selected Story. https://www.adfontesmedia.com/ . https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/new-york-post/ https://www.allsides.com/media-bias/media-bias-ratings As a chinese some mistakes in article 1.the phone bells the ban of trains or flights. all because the debt which courts can not enforce. all the methods only want you obey the judgements.

2.alipay the paypal of alibaba, has a system, like the ebay store rates, the score now can benefit the Second-hand trading. all these system is about economy. Nothing with political issue.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#90

Post by linyu0219 »

linyu0219 wrote: post #89

the media bias score of nypost base on adfontesmedia is only 20,selected Story. https://www.adfontesmedia.com/ . https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/new-york-post/ https://www.allsides.com/media-bias/media-bias-ratings As a chinese some mistakes in article 1.the phone bells the ban of trains or flights. all because the debt which courts can not enforce. all the methods only want you obey the judgements. 2.alipay the paypa…

political problem don't need score system.
Post reply on HN