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Trump Moves to Ban Foreign Telecom Gear, Targeting Huawei and China

nytimes.com

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Re: Trump Moves to Ban Foreign Telecom Gear, Targeting Huawei and China

#81

Post by ISV_Damocles »

bsder wrote: post #58
ISV_Damocles wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (We should also not forget or excuse Chinese IP theft which has enabled Huawei to produce competitive products in the first place...) I certainly can, because it would be hypocritical to be against Microsoft using IP rights as a bludgeon on Linux, Qualcomm on Apple, Oracle on Google, and then be upset with Huawei on anything but stealing trade secrets. Patents have not helped the common man for at least a hundred y…

> I certainly can, because it would be hypocritical to be against Microsoft using IP rights as a bludgeon on Linux, Qualcomm on Apple, Oracle on Google, and then be upset with Huawei on anything but stealing trade secrets. There is a difference between developing technology and getting into a patent war vs wholesale copying of a product so completely that you actually duplicate the BUGS . Yeah, Huawei did that and Ci…

Copying a product to reproduce bugs as well is exactly what WINE is all about. When bugs are part of your interface for others to integrate with, then I don't believe they should be considered off limits to copy. Otherwise an incumbent company could intentionally put in bugs, sue competitors to prevent them from implementing them, and effectively take over an existing standard.

Re: Trump Moves to Ban Foreign Telecom Gear, Targeting Huawei and China

#82

Post by s_y_n_t_a_x »

krapp wrote: post #71
m0zg wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charlottesville hoax has been debunked again and again, including by MSM outlets themselves. Read what he actually said: https://blog.dilbert.com/2019/04/30/the-fine-people-hoax-fun...

Ok fair enough. That still leaves the rest of the mountain of evidence. Is every quote and statement ever made by and about Trump also a hoax? Even the ones from prior to his presidency?

If you would like to pick the strongest cases from the list I'd be more than willing to poke holes in them. I skimmed through the wikipedia article and your other link, there was a lot of here-say, some things that may not be PC by today's standards, and some outright falsehoods. I did not see any racism though.

He had a black girlfriend, his son-in-law is Jewish. I really don't see how he can be racist. I think people may mistake his abrasive personality for racism, but when you're targeting individuals and not a race, it's not racism.

Re: Trump Moves to Ban Foreign Telecom Gear, Targeting Huawei and China

#83

Post by paulgrahamisfat »

petschge wrote: post #4

The fear mongering against Huawei becomes really interesting when you look at all the "sorry, we forgot about that unintentional access possibility" incidents in Cisco gear that might either be back doors or lousy QA leading to security problems.

Apple fought the US government. Why can't Huawei fight theirs? Oh, right... They will be executed if they do.

Re: Trump Moves to Ban Foreign Telecom Gear, Targeting Huawei and China

#84

Post by olliej »

monocasa wrote: post #69
quotz wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA is not a communist country, big difference. With political administration changes, also do foreign policy opinions change, along with whatever CIA has to do with foreign sovereignties. One USA regime pardons Manning, another jails him/her. One USA regime bombs Syria, another doesnt. Also, CIA seeded companies are just a few and none of the big ones. Palantir and Oculus are their biggest, not sure Oculus can spy o…

Yeah it's just a coincidence that Cisco can't seem to quit shipping hardcoded root backdoors to their routers... https://www.tomshardware.com/news/cisco-backdoor-hardcoded-a...

I know right? If you ship horrible security flaws so often, eventually no one will think they're intentional :D

Honestly you could probably do it without engineers knowing about it simply by cutting QA and red team budgets.

I'm not saying I think that's what happens at Cisco. Having worked at large companies that actively try to ship secure products, and having observed (as a paying end user) the general terrible-ness of networking hardware, that it is more plausible that they're just not being careful - I want to say incompetent by that is likely unfair to the majority of engineers there.

Of course nothing says that various gov. agencies in many countries aren't auditing the equipment themselves and making use of flaws without publicizing them.

Re: Trump Moves to Ban Foreign Telecom Gear, Targeting Huawei and China

#85

Post by krapp »

m0zg wrote: post #76
krapp wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok fair enough. That still leaves the rest of the mountain of evidence. Is every quote and statement ever made by and about Trump also a hoax? Even the ones from prior to his presidency?

Prior to his presidency here's how things were "racism" wise: https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+with+sharpton&newwindo... . Dude even had a black girflriend for a couple of years: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/us/politics/trump-blacks-... As to "mountains of evidence", up until you've read the article I linked, you thought there was "mountain of evidence" about Charlottesville, too. Heck, you probably still…

One article from which that first picture was taken[0] suggests other than the narrative you want to present:

    Today, the two are at opposite ends of the political spectrum. In 
    the interview last December, Trump said on Fox that Sharpton “is 
    a guy who I don’t believe really believes what he’s saying.”

    And Sharpton has used his MSNBC and radio shows to criticize Trump, 
    arguing that his stances on Barack Obama’s birth certificate 
    and the Central Park Five were racist.
And here's another one[1] where Al Sharpton out and out calls Trump a racist.

So that leaves the fact that he one dated a black woman as your evidence to disprove everything else?

H.P. Lovecraft was a racist and virulent antisemite, and yet he still married a Jewish woman. Racists are not racist about everything, all the time, like cartoon characters, and where people like Trump are concerned, obviously class status also has an effect on the way race is viewed.

Not terribly convincing.

[0]https://www.nationalreview.com/2015/09/trumps-pal-al-sharpto...

[1]https://www.huffpost.com/entry/al-sharpton-donald-trump-raci...

>Heck, you probably still think that, this particular bit of fake news has been drilled into everyone's skulls relentlessly for over a year.

Now you're resorting to personal attacks, so this conversation is over.

Re: Trump Moves to Ban Foreign Telecom Gear, Targeting Huawei and China

#87

Post by krapp »

s_y_n_t_a_x wrote: post #82
krapp wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok fair enough. That still leaves the rest of the mountain of evidence. Is every quote and statement ever made by and about Trump also a hoax? Even the ones from prior to his presidency?

If you would like to pick the strongest cases from the list I'd be more than willing to poke holes in them. I skimmed through the wikipedia article and your other link, there was a lot of here-say, some things that may not be PC by today's standards, and some outright falsehoods. I did not see any racism though. He had a black girlfriend, his son-in-law is Jewish. I really don't see how he can be racist. I think peop…

Well yes.

I did say it was circumstantial evidence, but there is a lot of it.

>He had a black girlfriend, his son-in-law is Jewish. I really don't see how he can be racist.

As I mentioned elsewhere, H.P. Lovecraft was anti-semitic, and married a Jewish woman. Also, Dick Cheney's daughter is gay, but he doesn't support gay rights (and yes, "gay" is not a race, let's not get bogged down in pedantry.)

It is entirely possible to be a racist and not perfectly consistent with one's racism, and to be racist against certain people or groups based on the admixture of race and class, or race and personal relationships. Racism is emotional, not rational.

The best you can say is that there's evidence for and against, but that still leaves evidence for.

Re: Trump Moves to Ban Foreign Telecom Gear, Targeting Huawei and China

#88

Post by olliej »

ISV_Damocles wrote: post #38
Alupis wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really see the fear mongering or problem here. This executive order would forbid the government from purchasing and installing Telecom/Networking equipment that would be considered to have a higher than acceptable risk. Given that China isn't exactly the most friendly nation to the US, and given Huawei is by nature, an extension of the Chinese Government, it's not unreasonable to assume China might at some po…

> (We should also not forget or excuse Chinese IP theft which has enabled Huawei to produce competitive products in the first place...) I certainly can, because it would be hypocritical to be against Microsoft using IP rights as a bludgeon on Linux, Qualcomm on Apple, Oracle on Google, and then be upset with Huawei on anything but stealing trade secrets. Patents have not helped the common man for at least a hundred y…

You mean like the guy who invented the super soaker?

Or the guy who invented the aero press?

Or that time sears ripped off an inventor - and patents ensured they had to pay? [1] Or that other time when they misrepresented the value of a patent [2] - in that case the absence of the patent would mean there was nothing to have stolen.

Seriously, patents only really became terrible in the late 80s and 90s when the US gov. started allowing patents on what were functionally just concepts rather than actual inventions saying how something worked, and allowing patents on obvious uses of computers by virtue of "on a computer".

Patents on mechanical inventions are literally the only way for the "common man" to be able to make money off an invention. Without the patent rights:

* you have to be able to raise the capital to produce the device (corporations and the already rich have that - amazon was kept afloat solely because Bezos was already a billionaire).

* You have to price your device to pay off the capital expenditure, in addition to all the other costs

* You have to do that while also undercutting businesses that already have the manufacturing capacity to replicate your invention.

In the absence of patent protection on your invention you have little likelihood of recovering your investment as an individual.

Think of it this way: copyright says that copying something without/in contravention of a license is not legal, and so you can be sued. That allows things like linux to succeed - you can't make a product that uses it without contributing back. Patents are the same thing for inventions - someone doesn't get to copy your work (the act and work of inventing) without your consent.

[1] https://thehustle.co/sears-patent-infringement

[2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/business/1989/09/18/s...

Re: Trump Moves to Ban Foreign Telecom Gear, Targeting Huawei and China

#89

Post by m0zg »

krapp wrote: post #85
m0zg wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prior to his presidency here's how things were "racism" wise: https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+with+sharpton&newwindo... . Dude even had a black girflriend for a couple of years: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/us/politics/trump-blacks-... As to "mountains of evidence", up until you've read the article I linked, you thought there was "mountain of evidence" about Charlottesville, too. Heck, you probably still…

One article from which that first picture was taken[0] suggests other than the narrative you want to present: Today, the two are at opposite ends of the political spectrum. In the interview last December, Trump said on Fox that Sharpton “is a guy who I don’t believe really believes what he’s saying.” And Sharpton has used his MSNBC and radio shows to criticize Trump, arguing that his stances on Barack Obama’s birth c…

Of course Sharpton will call him a "racist" _now_. Not doing so would subject him to intense repercussions as a democrat, his career would be over in an instant.

But Trump is the dude literally _nobody_ had any problems with until he ran against HRC, including the likes of Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, etc. He received the Rosa Parks award fer chrissakes: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-received-ellis-islan...

Re: Trump Moves to Ban Foreign Telecom Gear, Targeting Huawei and China

#90

Post by monocasa »

olliej wrote: post #84
monocasa wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it's just a coincidence that Cisco can't seem to quit shipping hardcoded root backdoors to their routers... https://www.tomshardware.com/news/cisco-backdoor-hardcoded-a...

I know right? If you ship horrible security flaws so often, eventually no one will think they're intentional :D Honestly you could probably do it without engineers knowing about it simply by cutting QA and red team budgets. I'm not saying I think that's what happens at Cisco. Having worked at large companies that actively try to ship secure products, and having observed (as a paying end user) the general terrible-nes…

There's screwing up and having bugs.

And then there's leaving in five separate root logins in just in the first half of 2018. Like, come on.

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